My interview on History Valley

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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mlinssen
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Re: My interview on History Valley

Post by mlinssen »

GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:22 am
mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:38 pmDo you really assume that there was a Trypho? Have you read even a few pages of this rhetoric?
I agree Trypho is Justin's character, that may or may not have been based on a real person whom Justin interacted with. But it doesn't matter. The character of Trypho is presented as a Jew, and it is in character for him to say "so called gospels".
mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:38 pmThe burden of proof lies with you GDon. Go on then, make my day - you don't stand the slimmest chance
If there is a claim on the table that Justin didn't know our Gospels, then I'd like to understand the evidence for that. I'm not even denying it, just interested in the evidence.
You are deliberately turning things upside down, or you are a complete idiot - the choice is all yours, GDon.
Why have you now left out the essential part of your previous quote?
Which would be, of course (rendered LARGE):
mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:38 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:18 pm The "so-called gospel" in Dialogue is being spoken by Trypho. Also in Dialogue, Justin describes the memoirs as:

"For in the memoirs which I say were drawn up by His apostles and those who followed them"

It does sound like our Gospels, though obviously there isn't enough information to prove that. I'd be interested in evidence that they weren't our 4 Gospels though.
Do you really assume that there was a Trypho? Have you read even a few pages of this rhetoric?

LOL.

The burden of proof lies with you GDon. Go on then, make my day - you don't stand the slimmest chance
1. Is it abundantly clear that Sweet Jus uses a variety of words and labels to refer to "what Jesus passed down"? Yes
2. Is the overwhelming majority of words something like "memories" in stead of written texts? Yes
3. When Justin does refer to a text, does he use singular more ofthen plural? Yes
4. Does Justin explicitly mention a number on the one or two ocassions where he does use the plural when referring to written text? No
5. Does Justin mention authors or names on the one or two ocassions where he does use the plural when referring to written text? No

You don't stand a chance GDon
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GakuseiDon
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Re: My interview on History Valley

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mlinssen wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:03 amWhy have you now left out the essential part of your previous quote?
Which would be, of course (rendered LARGE):
mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:38 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:18 pm The "so-called gospel" in Dialogue is being spoken by Trypho. Also in Dialogue, Justin describes the memoirs as:

"For in the memoirs which I say were drawn up by His apostles and those who followed them"

It does sound like our Gospels, though obviously there isn't enough information to prove that. I'd be interested in evidence that they weren't our 4 Gospels though.
Do you really assume that there was a Trypho? Have you read even a few pages of this rhetoric?

LOL.

The burden of proof lies with you GDon. Go on then, make my day - you don't stand the slimmest chance
Well, I'm still interested in evidence that the Gospels Justin Martyr referred to weren't the ones we know. Again, I'm asking a question, not making an argument. If I'm wrong about them sounding like our Gospels, please let me know. I'd love to read the evidence!
mlinssen wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:03 am1. Is it abundantly clear that Sweet Jus uses a variety of words and labels to refer to "what Jesus passed down"? Yes
2. Is the overwhelming majority of words something like "memories" in stead of written texts? Yes
Yes, in the First Apology, which he is writing to pagans, he only uses "Gospels" once:

For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done.

He adds a quote that can be found in our Gospels. I'm guessing that "memoirs" might have meant more to the pagans than the word "Gospels", whom may have not heard the term before in relation to Christian writings.
mlinssen wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:03 am3. When Justin does refer to a text, does he use singular more ofthen plural? Yes
He uses plural forms for both "memoirs" and "Gospels". The fact that he uses the singular for "Gospel" might be more about the message rather than the texts themselves, if that's what you mean.
mlinssen wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:03 am4. Does Justin explicitly mention a number on the one or two ocassions where he does use the plural when referring to written text? No
Meaning what? According to Justin, they were written by the apostles and their followers. Consistent with our Gospels, though obviously there isn't enough information to prove that they were the same.
mlinssen wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:03 am5. Does Justin mention authors or names on the one or two ocassions where he does use the plural when referring to written text? No
Would that have carried weight with the pagans? No. Would it have carried weight within his story about his debate with Trypho? I don't see how. None of the Gospel authors were famous outside Christianity.

Why do you think the lack of author names is significant?

To be clear, I don't care whether Justin knew the 4 Gospels in the NT. I have no dog in that fight! I'd just be interested in evidence that Justin was using other Gospels.

If you like, here is a quote from Justin's Dialogue that might be evidence that Justin didn't know that John was a Gospel writer:

And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place.
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mlinssen
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Re: My interview on History Valley

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GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:06 am Meaning what? According to Justin, they were written by the apostles and their followers. Consistent with our Gospels, though obviously there isn't enough information to prove that they were the same.
Not at all consistent; all there is, is a plural "memories". He could have been referring to dozens of other texts

Indeed
rgprice
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Re: My interview on History Valley

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mlinssen wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:44 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:06 am Meaning what? According to Justin, they were written by the apostles and their followers. Consistent with our Gospels, though obviously there isn't enough information to prove that they were the same.
Not at all consistent; all there is, is a plural "memories". He could have been referring to dozens of other texts

Indeed
Right, and there are many details that Justin provides which contradict details from the canonical Gospels. Clearly he was reading stories that were very similar, but not quite the same. Also, he never refers to these by the NT titles, yet from Irenaeus on all the proto-orthodox apologists use the NT titles.

So it is quite well established that Justin was reading non-orthodox versions these stories that weren't exactly what we find in the NT, but by some 20 or 30 years later, all of proto-orthodoxy was "reading from the same book," essentially the exact same materials that we still have in the NT today.

At one point Neil posted or sent me a link with comparisons between Justin's references to the Jesus narrative and what we have in the NT Gospels, showing all of the ways in which what Justin said compares across the four Gospels and how there are many subtle, but critical differences. I wish I could find that link...
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Re: My interview on History Valley

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rgprice wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 4:04 am
mlinssen wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:44 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:06 am Meaning what? According to Justin, they were written by the apostles and their followers. Consistent with our Gospels, though obviously there isn't enough information to prove that they were the same.
Not at all consistent; all there is, is a plural "memories". He could have been referring to dozens of other texts

Indeed
Right, and there are many details that Justin provides which contradict details from the canonical Gospels. Clearly he was reading stories that were very similar, but not quite the same. Also, he never refers to these by the NT titles, yet from Irenaeus on all the proto-orthodox apologists use the NT titles.

So it is quite well established that Justin was reading non-orthodox versions these stories that weren't exactly what we find in the NT, but by some 20 or 30 years later, all of proto-orthodoxy was "reading from the same book," essentially the exact same materials that we still have in the NT today.

At one point Neil posted or sent me a link with comparisons between Justin's references to the Jesus narrative and what we have in the NT Gospels, showing all of the ways in which what Justin said compares across the four Gospels and how there are many subtle, but critical differences. I wish I could find that link...
That is precisely what Christi Thora is about, among others:

1. Irenäus von Lyon – Zeuge für eine titellose Sammlung mit vier Evangelien

Irenäus von Lyon (*um 135; † um 200) ist der erste Zeuge für diese Sammlung, wenn auch nicht für alle darin enthaltenen Schriften. Etwa 20 Jahre vor ihm lehrte und schrieb Justin, der Märtyrer, der noch kein einziges Mal ausdrücklich Bezug nimmt auf Paulus und seine Briefe. Und wenn Justin vom Evangelium spricht (Dial.
10,2), lässt er diesen Begriff durch den jüdischen Gesprächspartner Trypho einfüh-ren als „sogenanntes Evangelium“, oder versteht den Begriff als „gute Nachrichten für die Armen“ (Dial. 12,2). Einmal scheint er auf eine Schrift anzuspielen (Dial. 100,1),5doch wenn er die Bezeichnung in der Mehrzahl verwendet, spricht er wie-der von „sogenannten Evangelien“ (1Apol. 66,3), also eine Beschreibung, die durchscheinen lässt, dass sie ihm als ungewöhnlich und neu erscheint. In der Tat bevorzugt er einen anderen Titel, wenn er wieder und wieder seine Leserschaft bei Bezugnahmen auf Jesustraditionen auf die „Erinnerungen der Apostel“ ver-weist.6Allerdings gesteht er auch diesbezüglich an einer Stelle ein, dass diese „Er-innerungen“ nicht ausschließlich von den Aposteln, sondern auch von deren Schü-lern aufgezeichnet worden seien (Dial. 103).7Damit will er verdeutlichen, dass diese Erinnerungen, und zwar in ihrer „Schriftlichkeit“, „weder Aufzeichnungen zu eigener Erinnerung und Benutzung, noch Sammlungen von ‘Denkwürdigkei-ten’ für die Nachwelt (sind) – das wären hypomneumata –, sondern ‘Erinnerungen’ an einen bedeutenden Menschen“.8Präzisierend muss man sagen, dass es Justin nicht um die Taten Jesu geht, sondern um Aussagen Jesu.9 Anders liest sich der etwas jüngere Irenäus, wenn er sein umfangreiches, fünf-bändiges Werk Adversus haereses, das er selbst als „Widerlegung und Überwindung der fälschlich sogenannten Gnosis“ bezeichnet, mit einem Zitat aus 1Tim 1,4 eröff-net und gleich schon in der Vorrede ausführlich aus Mt zitiert. Über diese Schriften hinaus, die wir aus dem Neuen Testament kennen, hat er noch viele weitere zum Teil sehr ausführlich zitiert und als Beweise für seine Argumentation angeführt. Ja, er scheint nach der Art, wie er diese in Buch III von Adversus haereses durchgehend zitiert auch die vier Teilsammlungen, also die der „Vier Evangelien“ und die der „Paulusbriefe“, den „Praxapostolos“ und die „Offenbarung des Johannes“ als Teil-sammlungen gekannt zu haben.10Die einzigen neutestamentlichen Schriften, die er in den Büchern III und IV nicht anführt und über die er sich ausschweigt, sind der Brief des Paulus an Philemon, der auch sonst nicht zitiert wird, 2Petr,113Joh und Jud.12Von Bedeutung ist auch, dass Irenäus einen weiteren Brief kennt, der ihm zufolge von der Kirche in Rom an die Brüder in Korinth geschrieben wurde und den er ein „sehr geeignetes (in der lat. Übersetzung gar: „sehr gewichtiges“) Schreiben“ nennt.13Allerdings gibt er als Einschränkung zu erkennen, dass nur die-jenigen, „die unterscheiden wollen, die Tradition der apostolischen Kirche daraus erkennen können, zumal der Brief älter sei als diejenigen, die jetzt das Falsche lehr-ten“.14Damit wird deutlich, dass Irenäus zwischen den von ihm zitierten Schriften und anderen Werken wie etwa dem Hirten des Hermas und dem Ersten Klemens-brief unterscheidet. Letztere hält er zwar für geeignet oder gewichtig, doch sieht er sie nicht in dem Rang wie erstere. Die Unterscheidung verweist auf seinen doppel-ten Sprachgebrauch von „Schrift“,15ja, an dieser Grenzziehung scheint er selbst mitbeteiligt zu sein. Wir werden hierauf gleich näher einzugehen haben. Die Offb schreibt er dem Evangelisten Johannes zu, nutzt den Verweis auf die von ihr bekämpften Nikolaiten (Offb 2,6.15)16und greift auch das Thema der künftigen Auferstehung auf, das vor ihm bereits Justin in dieser „Offenbarung, die einem ge-wissen unter uns mit Namen Johannes ergangen ist“, gelesen hatte.17Doch wäh-rend Justin darauf pocht, dass „diejenigen, die an unseren Christus glauben, tau-send Jahre in Jerusalem leben werden“,18 legt sich Irenäus nicht auf eine bestimmte Zahl von Jahren fest. Und doch blieb die „Offenbarung“ gerade wegen dieser Lehre von dem künftigen Reich umstritten, was die Zugehörigkeit zu der Sammlung betrifft.19
Allerdings ist schon aufgefallen, dass Irenäus die Sammlung nicht mit dem uns für sie bekannten Namen benennt.20Wenn er in seinen Schriften, was selten ge-schieht, von einem „Neuen Testament“ spricht, griechisch kainá diaqûkh(in der frühen lateinischen Irenäusübersetzung: „novum testamentum“) folgt er zwei älte-ren Bedeutungen dieser Begriffskombination, wobei er die erste aus der grie-chischen Übersetzung der jüdischen Bibel kennt, in derdiaqûkhfür Gottes „Bund“ (berit) mit den Menschen steht. Die zweite Bedeutungsvariante findet sich im um-gangssprachlichen und rechtssprachlichen Bereich, in dem das Griechische wie das Lateinische „Testament“ eine erbschaftsrechtliche Verfügung bezeichnet;21

The Greek fell through, sorry: kaine diatheke, replacing eta with epsilon there
lclapshaw
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Re: My interview on History Valley

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mlinssen wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:03 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:22 am
mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:38 pmDo you really assume that there was a Trypho? Have you read even a few pages of this rhetoric?
I agree Trypho is Justin's character, that may or may not have been based on a real person whom Justin interacted with. But it doesn't matter. The character of Trypho is presented as a Jew, and it is in character for him to say "so called gospels".
mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:38 pmThe burden of proof lies with you GDon. Go on then, make my day - you don't stand the slimmest chance
If there is a claim on the table that Justin didn't know our Gospels, then I'd like to understand the evidence for that. I'm not even denying it, just interested in the evidence.
You are deliberately turning things upside down, or you are a complete idiot - the choice is all yours, GDon.
Why have you now left out the essential part of your previous quote?
Which would be, of course (rendered LARGE):
mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:38 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:18 pm The "so-called gospel" in Dialogue is being spoken by Trypho. Also in Dialogue, Justin describes the memoirs as:

"For in the memoirs which I say were drawn up by His apostles and those who followed them"

It does sound like our Gospels, though obviously there isn't enough information to prove that. I'd be interested in evidence that they weren't our 4 Gospels though.
Do you really assume that there was a Trypho? Have you read even a few pages of this rhetoric?

LOL.

The burden of proof lies with you GDon. Go on then, make my day - you don't stand the slimmest chance
1. Is it abundantly clear that Sweet Jus uses a variety of words and labels to refer to "what Jesus passed down"? Yes
2. Is the overwhelming majority of words something like "memories" in stead of written texts? Yes
3. When Justin does refer to a text, does he use singular more ofthen plural? Yes
4. Does Justin explicitly mention a number on the one or two ocassions where he does use the plural when referring to written text? No
5. Does Justin mention authors or names on the one or two ocassions where he does use the plural when referring to written text? No

You don't stand a chance GDon
As to the usage of singular over plural, we know that his pupil Tatian created a harmony (adding John?), Does that make Justin using a harmony (without John) at least possible?
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Re: My interview on History Valley

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lclapshaw wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:47 am As to the usage of singular over plural, we know that his pupil Tatian created a harmony (adding John?), Does that make Justin using a harmony (without John) at least possible?
Yes it is, several have argued for that (sorry, don't know any top of my head).
What helps is that Didache, *Ev and Thomas share quite a bit of similarities
rgprice
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Re: My interview on History Valley

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FYI, I'm going to do a livestream presentation on History Valley Monday Dec 12 at 10 MNT. Probably about an hour presentation using a slide deck that will more thoroughly focus on the thesis of Deciphering the Gospels and I'll take questions after.
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Re: My interview on History Valley

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mlinssen wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:36 am
lclapshaw wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:47 am As to the usage of singular over plural, we know that his pupil Tatian created a harmony (adding John?), Does that make Justin using a harmony (without John) at least possible?
Yes it is, several have argued for that (sorry, don't know any top of my head).
What helps is that Didache, *Ev and Thomas share quite a bit of similarities
See Sayings of Jesus in Justin Martyr by Bellinzoni.

Andrew Criddle
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Re: My interview on History Valley

Post by mlinssen »

andrewcriddle wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:51 am
mlinssen wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:36 am
lclapshaw wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:47 am As to the usage of singular over plural, we know that his pupil Tatian created a harmony (adding John?), Does that make Justin using a harmony (without John) at least possible?
Yes it is, several have argued for that (sorry, don't know any top of my head).
What helps is that Didache, *Ev and Thomas share quite a bit of similarities
See Sayings of Jesus in Justin Martyr by Bellinzoni.

Andrew Criddle
Oh my Andrew, I just scanned that a bit and it's priceless!
Crazy verbatim (dis)agreement, but this saves me tons of work

Thank you very much!!!
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