Basic reason why Mark is not pauline

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Giuseppe
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Re: Basic reason why Mark is not pauline

Post by Giuseppe »

mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:26 pm There is no Jacob the Righteous anywhere save for Thomas. Unless I have overlooked something
according to Vinzent, Hegesippus invented the label "the Just" for James:

Hegesippus, who explictly writes against Marcion, would have been regarded by the latter as one of ‘those who defended the Jewish belief’ and united the Gospel with the Law and the Prophets’. Hegesippus’ quote ‘leaves no room for Paul as an authority’.
In his History of the Church from the beginning of the fourth century, Eusebius gives a few details about Hegesippus: H wrote in the seventies or eighties of the second century and was a convert from the Hebrews, probably of Samaritan background. Hegesippus, indeed, displays some considerable Samaritan knowledge, but combines it with a high esteem for the Jewish origins of the churches, especially the ones from Jerusalem. But he is equally bold in criticizing Judaic Pharisaism and Sadduceism, and also Samaritan Christianity. Moreover, he sees Samaritan Christianity as paving the way for Marcion’s teaching and the separation between Judaism and Christianity. To Hegesippus the parting of the ways between Judaism and Christianity was an inner-Hebrew dispute between a Pharisaic and a Pharisaic-Samaritan Christianity. In clear counter-position to Marcion, whose message he sees as a kind of Samaritan rejection of the Jews and their temple, Hegesippus reconnects the Church’s beginnings firmly with Jerusalem and the Temple, and roots the young community deeply in the wider family of Jesus and his brother James.
Against, but also partly aknowledging Marcion, Hegesippus paints James as ‘the Just’ who was announced by the prophets, carries all the Marcionite ascetic ideals (no wine, a vegetarian, no cutting of hair, no perfumes, no bathing) and makes people believe in the resurrection and judgement. He is portrayed like a Jewish-Christian alternative to the Pauline Marcion: Jesus’ earthly family counts against Paul’s visionary authority of the Risen Christ.

(Markus Vinzent, Christ’s resurrection in Early Christianity and the Making of the New Testament, Ashgate 2011, p.99-100, my bold)

But the only support for an anti-demiurgist origin of James is the fact that he was honoured by Naassenes, notoriously haters of YHWH
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Re: Basic reason why Mark is not pauline

Post by mlinssen »

Giuseppe wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:57 pm
mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:26 pm There is no Jacob the Righteous anywhere save for Thomas. Unless I have overlooked something
according to Vinzent, Hegesippus invented the label "the Just" for James:

Hegesippus, who explictly writes against Marcion, would have been regarded by the latter as one of ‘those who defended the Jewish belief’ and united the Gospel with the Law and the Prophets’. Hegesippus’ quote ‘leaves no room for Paul as an authority’.
In his History of the Church from the beginning of the fourth century, Eusebius gives a few details about Hegesippus: H wrote in the seventies or eighties of the second century and was a convert from the Hebrews, probably of Samaritan background. Hegesippus, indeed, displays some considerable Samaritan knowledge, but combines it with a high esteem for the Jewish origins of the churches, especially the ones from Jerusalem. But he is equally bold in criticizing Judaic Pharisaism and Sadduceism, and also Samaritan Christianity. Moreover, he sees Samaritan Christianity as paving the way for Marcion’s teaching and the separation between Judaism and Christianity. To Hegesippus the parting of the ways between Judaism and Christianity was an inner-Hebrew dispute between a Pharisaic and a Pharisaic-Samaritan Christianity. In clear counter-position to Marcion, whose message he sees as a kind of Samaritan rejection of the Jews and their temple, Hegesippus reconnects the Church’s beginnings firmly with Jerusalem and the Temple, and roots the young community deeply in the wider family of Jesus and his brother James.
Against, but also partly aknowledging Marcion, Hegesippus paints James as ‘the Just’ who was announced by the prophets, carries all the Marcionite ascetic ideals (no wine, a vegetarian, no cutting of hair, no perfumes, no bathing) and makes people believe in the resurrection and judgement. He is portrayed like a Jewish-Christian alternative to the Pauline Marcion: Jesus’ earthly family counts against Paul’s visionary authority of the Risen Christ.

(Markus Vinzent, Christ’s resurrection in Early Christianity and the Making of the New Testament, Ashgate 2011, p.99-100, my bold)

But the only support for an anti-demiurgist origin of James is the fact that he was honoured by Naassenes, notoriously haters of YHWH
I don't see Vinzent mentioning "Jacob the Righteous", do you?
And Hegesippus is invented by Eusebius: Historia Ecclesiastica 4.22 - and we all know Eusebius and how trustworthy he is
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Re: Basic reason why Mark is not pauline

Post by Charles Wilson »

mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:49 pmAnd Hegesippus is invented by Eusebius: Historia Ecclesiastica 4.22 - and we all know Eusebius and how trustworthy he is
See Also: Jay Raskin, Christs and Christianities, https://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Christ ... 1413497918 , for full agreement with this point.

CW
Last edited by Charles Wilson on Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Basic reason why Mark is not pauline

Post by Giuseppe »

mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:49 pm I don't see Vinzent mentioning "Jacob the Righteous", do you?
isn't "Jacob" equivalent to "James"?
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Re: Basic reason why Mark is not pauline

Post by mlinssen »

Giuseppe wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:15 am
mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:49 pm I don't see Vinzent mentioning "Jacob the Righteous", do you?
isn't "Jacob" equivalent to "James"?
For some strange reason the English opt to translate Jacob with James, yes.
But then please point me to where it says James the Just, other than Eusebius claiming that a certain Hegesippus did so

The issue is: of all the Chrestian / Christian texts that we have, exclkuding the FF, Thomas is the only one using the label 'Righteous' or 'Just'

He either made that up or got it from someone else: which text would that be then?
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Re: Basic reason why Mark is not pauline

Post by Giuseppe »

The fact is that James is too much known as the Pillar faced by Paul mentioned in Galatians 1-2.

So he had to be too much famous, at least as Judaizing icon (even if I can't explain why the anti-demiurgist Naassenes praised him).

If you try to distinguish James from Jacob, it sounds as a false distinction without really a true difference.

So:
  • Thomas could be a Naassene Gospel (in this sense: surely before Marcion, since Marcion was surely not the first to hate the god of the Jews);
  • or Thomas has been infected by Judaizing anti-marcionite traditions, exalting James against the Solus Paulus of Marcion.
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Re: Basic reason why Mark is not pauline

Post by Charles Wilson »

mlinssen wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:51 am ...Thomas is the only one using the label 'Righteous' or 'Just'

He either made that up or got it from someone else: which text would that be then?
Matthew 5: 25 (RSV, "Realm of Heaven" from Moffatt):

[20] For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the [Realm of heaven].

Bear with me, mlinssen. I'm reviewing your very fine work for Priestly Echoes and this might be one.

The verse quoted in Matthew just above refers to humans involved in some Human Activity. I suppose that a True Believer might assert that this is a command for the Angels or other spirit beings but the more proper reading would imply that this is for Humans.

Then:

Your "Human" Righteousness must exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees. These are HUMANS with righteousness. The Scribes and Pharisees are HUMANS.
This leaves the enigmatic "Realm of Heaven" and the complete Domain of this verse leads me to believe that the "Realm of Heaven" is a Real, Physical Place.

Therefore, it might be reasonable to see that if you were "Righteous", you might be of the Priestly Groups. "James the Priest", perhaps?
The Priestly Apparatus was destroyed and on the Debris of this Destruction was the creation of the NT and Christianity/Chrestianity.

Your Thesis stands powerfully on its own and I do not wish to get into a Knock Down Drag Out with you. You have written a very valuable Work.
If, however, the Temple is destroyed when it was "prophesied" to remain when the Romans and Herodians were to be run outa' town when in fact, thousands died waiting for God to descend at the ascension of Archelaus, what melancholy future awaits? The NT Transvalues all of this.

Matthew 6: 25 -34 (RSV):

[25] "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?
[26] Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
[27] And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit to his span of life?
[28] And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin;
[29] yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
[30] But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O men of little faith?
[31] Therefore do not be anxious, saying, `What shall we eat?' or `What shall we drink?' or `What shall we wear?'
[32] For the Gentiles seek all these things; and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all.
[33] But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well.
[34] "Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Let the day's own trouble be sufficient for the day.

Y/N/M?

Best to you,

CW
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Re: Basic reason why Mark is not pauline

Post by dbz »

mlinssen wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:51 am For some strange reason the English opt to translate Jacob with James...
likely for the laymans benefit:

  Iákōbos (Ἰάκωβος) ton tou Zebedaiou = James
  v.
  Iákōbos (Ἰάκωβος) ton tou Halphaiou = Jacob

since three ambiguous mentions of Jacob/James occur at: the transfiguration Mark 9:2; the Mount of Olives Mark 13:3; and the Garden of Gethsemane Mark 14:33. However as Dennis R. MacDonald (2014:11) notes of the Boanerges, "In every instance but one they speak in unison". And given that these ambiguous mentions also identify John as present, then they are unlikely to be mentions of Jacob son of Alphaeus.
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Re: Basic reason why Mark is not pauline

Post by John2 »

I think the gospel of Mark is Pauline to whatever extent the author of Mark was Pauline, and I take the author of Mark to be the person described in early Christian writings as being a follower of Peter and as having once worked with Paul before having a falling out with him.

This description is similar to Paul's account in Galatians of his falling out with Peter, Barnabas and other Jews in Antioch. Mark would just be another fellow worker who had a falling out with Paul. And to whatever extent Mark and Paul (and Peter and Barnabas and other Jews) shared ideas in common, I suppose Mark's gospel reflects them. And to whatever extent Mark differed from Paul, I suppose his gospel reflects that. The same goes for 1 Peter, which I take to be genuine.

And I would say that where Peter (and 1 Peter) and Barnabas and Mark's gospel differ from Paul is a continued adherence to the Torah. Peter, Barnabas and other Jews in Antioch sided with James regarding maintaining ritual purity, and in Mark's gospel, Jesus adheres and preaches adherence to the Torah (including ritual purity in 1:40-44).
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Re: Basic reason why Mark is not pauline

Post by dbz »

John2 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:09 pm I think the gospel of Mark is Pauline to whatever extent the author of Mark was Pauline...
[...]
And I would say that where Peter (and 1 Peter) and Barnabas and Mark's gospel differ from Paul is a continued adherence to the Torah. Peter, Barnabas and other Jews in Antioch sided with James regarding maintaining ritual purity, and in Mark's gospel, Jesus adheres and preaches adherence to the Torah (including ritual purity in 1:40-44).
Vinzent would likely say we have to reconstruct the original Pauline core material first

Per "Mark's gospel differ from Paul is a continued adherence to the Torah".

No, what I see:

1. The belief that the material world is hopelessly corrupt and evil. A common belief among first century CE platonists, known as middle-platonists.

2. The belief that humans are hopelessly mired in evil to the extent that Earth-2.0 can never be obtained. However, "Good News" First-god is now satisfied with the blood poured out by second-god and the redeemable dead are now onboard the train! If you want to be onboard the last train leaving Earth-1.1 ahead of the coming END, and go to Earth-2.0, then follow Second-god.

3. The temple cult sacrifices are no longer required, First-god has left the building and Earth-1.1 is about to END.

gMark symbolizes that First-god has left the temple—when the temple curtain tears as he leaves—never to return.

Paul is saying that temple cult sacrifices are no longer required because Earth-1.1 is about to END and everybody should get ready to go to Earth-2.0.
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