Basic reason why Mark is not pauline

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
John2
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Re: Basic reason why Mark is not pauline

Post by John2 »

dbz wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:37 pm
gMark symbolizes that First-god has left the temple—when the temple curtain tears as he leaves—never to return.

I think Mark's gospel foreshadows the destruction of the Temple but is not advocating for a Temple-free future any more than Josephus is in War 6.5.3.

Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them.

Donahue (1973:203) interprets 15:38 in terms of what he calls the 'anti-temple theme', starting with 11:1, with Jesus in direct opposition and confrontation with the temple. He predicts and illustrates its destruction and is condemned to death for these daring words. 15:38 is then the culmination of the theme, signifying the reality of what Jesus has anticipated. Although Mark 13 explicitly refers to the destruction of the temple, the context shows that the temple as such is not rejected. Its destruction is the consequence of the disobedience and error of the religious leaders ... When the rending of the curtain is interpreted in terms of the destruction of the temple, Collins (2007:762) argues, the implication of the supersession of the Jewish cult and practices by a Christian one is the result of developments in the early Church 'when Christians were attempting to forge a new identity vis-á-vis Jewish communities'.


http://www.scielo.org.za/scielo.php?scr ... 20humanity.
Last edited by John2 on Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gd1234
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Re: Basic reason why Mark is not pauline

Post by Gd1234 »

Giuseppe wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:57 pmaccording to Vinzent, Hegesippus invented the label "the Just" for James:
I'm curious if " the just" was a common label for Jewish religious leaders.

Two places that come to mind include:
-Simeon the Just
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_the_Just
-1 john 2:1
dbz
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Re: Basic reason why Mark is not pauline

Post by dbz »

Carrier explains the old world order as understood by Christians before Paul, contra the new world order advocated by Paul. In short, the law of the old world order was death & decay and held sway for all (gentiles and jews) unless you were torah observant. In the new world order of Paul's cult not so much.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Basic reason why Mark is not pauline

Post by MrMacSon »

X 'the Just' = X 'the Righteous' (?)
John2
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Re: Basic reason why Mark is not pauline

Post by John2 »

Gd1234 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:54 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:57 pmaccording to Vinzent, Hegesippus invented the label "the Just" for James:
I'm curious if " the just" was a common label for Jewish religious leaders.

Two places that come to mind include:
-Simeon the Just
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_the_Just
-1 john 2:1

It's a common label for very holy people in Judaism from ancient times to now. And as noted on Wikipedia, they are renowned for praying, like Hegesippus says about James in EH 2.23.6-7 and 17.

While tzadik status, according to its above definitions, is not necessarily related to the ability to perform or call upon miracles, the term tzadik is often used loosely by the Talmud to indicate those who have achieved especially outstanding piety and holiness. In this context, the tzadik's prayers are considered especially potent, as the Talmud states: "A tzadik decrees and the Holy One (blessed be He) fulfills."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzadik

6. He alone was permitted to enter into the holy place; for he wore not woolen but linen garments. And he was in the habit of entering alone into the temple, and was frequently found upon his knees begging forgiveness for the people, so that his knees became hard like those of a camel, in consequence of his constantly bending them in his worship of God, and asking forgiveness for the people.

7. Because of his exceeding great justice he was called the Just
...

17. And while they were thus stoning him one of the priests of the sons of Rechab, the son of the Rechabites, who are mentioned by Jeremiah the prophet, cried out, saying, 'Stop. What are you doing? The just one prays for you.'
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