Is the earthly crucifixion the mere copy of the ideal crucifixion in heaven?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Is the earthly crucifixion the mere copy of the ideal crucifixion in heaven?

Post by Giuseppe »

All people know that Plato's Theory of Forms asserts that the physical realm is only a shadow, or image, of the true reality of the Realm of Forms. So what are these Forms, according to Plato? The Forms are abstract, perfect, unchanging concepts or ideals that transcend time and space; they exist in the Realm of Forms. Plato supposed that the object was essentially or "really" the Form and that the phenomena were mere shadows mimicking the Form; that is, momentary portrayals of the Form under different circumstances. In the Timaeus Plato clearly teaches that God or the "Demiurge" forms the things of this world according to the model of the Forms.

If the "real" crucifixion is a Form existing in the Realm of Forms (Heaven), then isn't the earthly crucifixion merely an (invented) "shadow, or image, of the true reality of the" Ideal Crucifixion placed, by definition, in heaven ?

The Demiurge would be the Agent who forms the crucifixion of this world according to the model of the celestial crucifixion.

Historically speaking, the 'demiurge' would be the first evangelist.

So Nietzsche saw correctly, when he defined the Christianity 'platonism for the people'.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Is the earthly crucifixion the mere copy of the ideal crucifixion in heaven?

Post by Giuseppe »

I have written:

Historically speaking, the 'demiurge' would be the first evangelist.

But is it true, afterall?

Was there the need of an eartly crucifixion as mere copy of the celestial crucifixion, when Josephus talks us that the crucifixions were thousands of thousands in Judea?

From a Platonic POV, even the eartly crucifixions described by Josephus, even if you mean them as 'crucifixion of an entire People Israel', are mere copies of the atemporal Crucifixion placed in heaven.

So, if the first evangelist wanted to fabricate a copy of a celestial crucifixion, he could do so only by finding a such copy in the numerous historical crucifixions of Jewish rebels described by Josephus.

So my point is that, even when some say that the oldest gospel was a mere allegory of the earthly crucifixion of Israel as a group, even so, he/she is still talking, in a Platonic universe, about a mere copy of the ideal celestial crucifixion. Since the crucifixion of an entire people is still an earthly event, hence by definition a mere reflection of the real thing: the celestial crucifixion of a god.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Is the earthly crucifixion the mere copy of the ideal crucifixion in heaven?

Post by Giuseppe »

Continuing my exercises in Platonism, even when someone says that the crucified Son of God is the crucified Israel, this "crucified Israel" is still an earthly concept, unworthy of being compared to the real celestial crucified Son.

Platonism gives no compromise from this POV: the real thing (in this case, the Crucifixion) is always in heaven, never on earth.

If the first evangelist was a genuine Platonist, then he could only agree with my conclusion.

in heavenon earth
the real crucifixionmere copies of the celestial crucifixion
the true Son of Godthe earthly son (of an inferior?) god: Israel
the real killers: demonsPilate or Herod
the celestial Stauros/Limit/Horosa Roman cross or a tree

Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Is the earthly crucifixion the mere copy of the ideal crucifixion in heaven?

Post by Giuseppe »

Why do you invent a mere copy of the real thing, if the real thing already exists (in heaven) ?

Possibly the answer is in the Platonic Allegory of the Cave.

Having seen the real Forms out of the cave (among them, the real crucifixion in heaven), the prisoner would believe the outside world is so much more real than that in the cave (=the earthly world). He would try to return to free the other prisoners. Upon his return, he is blinded because his eyes are not accustomed to actual sunlight. The chained prisoners would see this blindness and believe they will be harmed if they try to leave the cave.

So the chained prisoners (=the outsiders) should find the truth (that the real crucifixion is in heaven) only by being informed in a first time about the (invented) description of an earthly crucifixion. The knowledge of an earthly crucifixion would function as a preliminary step towards the knowledge of the celestial crucifixion.

In other terms, for the ex-prisoner, the shadows projected on the cave (=the Gospel story) are still useful insofar they may help the other prisoners in the gradual passage from ignorance to knowledge.
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