Markus Vinzent on History Valley

[mlinssen]

Marcion's Origins - Dr. Markus Vinzent

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou7n-7-hB2s

An absolutely great talk by Vinzent. I especially liked the why of Marcion; it fits with the "against Judaism" that I see in Thomas (he mentions him once at 35:25) and the "against Judeans" of which he doesn't say anything, but that is present in John

Fantastic English really, especially for a German

Full Monty:

Marcion of Sinope was an early Christian theologian in early Christianity. Marcion preached that God had sent Jesus Christ who was an entirely new and distinct from the vengeful God of Israel who had created the world.

Markus Vinzent studied philosophy, theology, Jewish Studies, ancient history and archaeology at the Universities of Eichstaett, Paris, Munich and Heidelberg. He worked as a pastor between 1984 and 1991, and from the 1990s onward he has in conjunction with his academic vocation been a serial entrepreneur (IT, Internet, HR, Energy, Waste). Between 1996 and 1997 he taught at the University of Mainz; between 1997 and 1999 he was C4-Professor and Chair-holder at the University of Cologne; and from 1999 to 2010 he was H.G. Wood Professor of Theology at the University of Birmingham. Since 2003 he has been one of the Directors of the International Conference on Patristic Studies, University of Oxford, and is one of the editors of Studia Patristica. He also edits Eckhart: Texts and Studies and is board member of various scholarly journals and series. He joined the Department of Theology and Religious Studies at King's in September 2010, and is also adjunct professor of Korea University, Seoul (South Korea), and Fellow of the Max-Weber-Kolleg, Erfurt (Germany).

[dbz]

Vinzent deprecates Q and other hypothetical sources as unnecessary if the "Gospel of the Lord" which is commonly attributed to Marcion was the first Gospel.

"Marcion And The Dating Of The Synoptic Gospels - Professor Markus Vinzent". YouTube. History Valley. 27 May 2022. "In this episode, Professor Markus Vinzent joins History Valley podcast for the first time to discuss his redating of the Gospels to the 2nd century CE and his conclusion that the Gospel of the Lord which is commonly attributed to Marcion was the first Gospel and that the four canonical Gospels Mark, Matthew, Luke and John copied from Marcion's Gospel."

Vinzent @time:01:00:04 notes that a core of the Pauline material may have been authored by Marcion and Co.

Vinzent is trying to reconstruct this original Pauline material.

"Marcion And The Dating Of The Synoptic Gospels - Professor Markus Vinzent". YouTube. History Valley. 27 May 2022. @time:01:00:04

[dbz]

Marcion's Origins - Dr. Markus Vinzent

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou7n-7-hB2s

An absolutely great talk by Vinzent. I especially liked the why of Marcion; it fits with the "against Judaism" that I see in Thomas (he mentions him once at 35:25) and the "against Judeans" of which he doesn't say anything, but that is present in John

"Marcion's Origins - Dr. Markus Vinzent". YouTube. History Valley. 30 September 2022. "Marcion of Sinope was an early Christian theologian in early Christianity. Marcion preached that God had sent Jesus Christ who was an entirely new and distinct from the vengeful God of Israel who had created the world."

[rgprice]

He's certainly a great speaker and what he has to say is very important.

I'm less clear, however, on how he views the Pauline letters.

He has "Christians" existing prior to the 2nd Jewish-Roman War and prior to Marcion.

This seems to presume Pauline type ministry prior to that point, and presumably that the Pauline letters existed prior to Marcion.

But he has Marcion sort of inventing the theology, however wouldn't this theology already exist among existing Christians and the Pauline letters.

[Irish1975]

I seem to remember Vinzent (in some video, maybe this one) saying that he was working on a new edition of the Apostolikon.

Does anyone know about this, or a date of publication?

In his 2012 and 2014 books, Vinzent contrasts the solidity of early testimonials to "Paul" (to whatever extent), with the total lack of testimonials to the Gospel tradition prior to the time of Marcion. This was essentially a methodological maneuver for foregrounding his account of the Evangelion and the Synoptics. A proper treatment of the Paul question by Vinzent would fill an important gap.

[Giuseppe]

This was essentially a methodological maneuver

I don't think that Vinzent did so 'for diplomatic reasons', as you are implying here.
At that time, he believed sincerely that Paul was so well attested.

After, he had to face surely the following criticism:

if Marcion removed from Paul the disturbing passages (in primis: 'born by woman, born under the law' of Galatians 4:4), then why couldn't he remove the same disturbing passages from Luke?

So my point is that prof Vinzent was obliged, in order to advance his theory of a sincere Marcion who never corrupted his Gospel sources, to recognize that Paul has been more interpolated by catholics than shortened/corrected by Marcion.

[mlinssen]

I seem to remember Vinzent (in some video, maybe this one) saying that he was working on a new edition of the Apostolikon.

Does anyone know about this, or a date of publication?

In his 2012 and 2014 books, Vinzent contrasts the solidity of early testimonials to "Paul" (to whatever extent), with the total lack of testimonials to the Gospel tradition prior to the time of Marcion. This was essentially a methodological maneuver for foregrounding his account of the Evangelion and the Synoptics. A proper treatment of the Paul question by Vinzent would fill an important gap.

Yes he was, and is. In my view the Apostolikon is nothing but a single letter from Marcion to a dozen or so congregations in order to do some carroting and sticking, which got expanded to several separate letters - or Paul, as well know him

Vinzent highly likely has a completely different view. But we will know very shortly:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/re ... 07EF3C0454

Yet what you are likely looking for will not appear before 2024:

http://markusvinzent.blogspot.com/2022/ ... cions.html

[MrMacSon]

in order to advance his theory of a sincere Marcion who never corrupted his Gospel sources, to recognize that Paul has been more interpolated by catholics than shortened/corrected by Marcion.

1. the ‘theory’ is not just Vinvent’s
2. the “Gospel sources” Marcion was said to have corrupted were not [just] “his” - they were [said to be] the canonical Gospel of Luke
3. yes, the propositions re Marcion and the Pauline letters include that Marcion also didn’t shorten the canonical versions of the Pauline letters, as he has been accused of; but Vincent is not just addressing that to advance his argument re Marcion and the gospels, he’s addressing Marcion’s role as a key figure in the genesis and shaping of early Christianity: a role that is likely to have been profoundly mirespresented by most scholarship since his contemporary, Justin Martyr; and mostly following the commentary of Irenaeus and Tertullian. A role that has almost exclusively included reaction to likely misrepresentation of him until the last decade or two.

[Irish1975]

I seem to remember Vinzent (in some video, maybe this one) saying that he was working on a new edition of the Apostolikon.

Does anyone know about this, or a date of publication?

In his 2012 and 2014 books, Vinzent contrasts the solidity of early testimonials to "Paul" (to whatever extent), with the total lack of testimonials to the Gospel tradition prior to the time of Marcion. This was essentially a methodological maneuver for foregrounding his account of the Evangelion and the Synoptics. A proper treatment of the Paul question by Vinzent would fill an important gap.

Yes he was, and is. In my view the Apostolikon is nothing but a single letter from Marcion to a dozen or so congregations in order to do some carroting and sticking, which got expanded to several separate letters - or Paul, as well know him

Vinzent highly likely has a completely different view. But we will know very shortly:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/re ... 07EF3C0454

Yet what you are likely looking for will not appear before 2024:

http://markusvinzent.blogspot.com/2022/ ... cions.html

Excellent, thanks

[Irish1975]

This was essentially a methodological maneuver

I don't think that Vinzent did so 'for diplomatic reasons', as you are implying here.
At that time, he believed sincerely that Paul was so well attested.

To clarify, I'm not talking about diplomacy or sincerity, or anything merely rhetorical. The point is that Vinzent at that time was not focused on the question of Paul, but rather on questions about the Gospels. Methodologically, he contrasted the quality and vintage of the testimonials for Paul, with those of the Gospel story. That contrast remains valid, whatever one's theory of Paul. But at that time Vinzent didn't take on the debates about Paul and "Paul" and the Corpus Paulinum.

So I am eager for his analysis.