Jesus, Paul and Josephus

[Charles Wilson]

Well said, maryhelena.
I understand you a little more.
Your point is well taken
'Nuff said.

Thanx,

CW

[mlinssen]

Just a note to anyone following this thread... I don't support any theory related to a Roman conspiracy to invent Christianity. Others posting on this thread might do so..... Just want to be clear that I don't.

My interest is in researching Jewish roots leading up to what became Christianity. Of course Rome is involved in the Jesus story due to its occupation of Judaea..... but that does not, to my thinking, mean Rome was able to enslave... to occupy.... the Jewish mind.

I didn't think you did or would, maryhelena. Nor do I think myself that Romans invented Christianity from scratch.
But it is precisely the complete absence of Judaic rooters that turns the whole Judeo-Christian story into a fable.
I mean, just read the chapter headings from Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho and it is blatantly obvious that the roots to Christianity were taken from the Tanakh and falsified to the hilarious extent that Justin is blaming the Judaics of having removed material from their very own Hebrew Bible

Chapter 1. Introduction
Chapter 2. Justin describes his studies in philosophy
Chapter 3. Justin narrates the manner of his conversion
Chapter 4. The soul of itself cannot see God
Chapter 5. The soul is not in its own nature immortal
Chapter 6. These things were unknown to Plato and other philosophers
Chapter 7. The knowledge of truth to be sought from the prophets alone
Chapter 8. Justin by his colloquy is kindled with love to Christ
Chapter 9. The Christians have not believed groundless stories
Chapter 10. Trypho blames the Christians for this alone— the non-observance of the law
Chapter 11. The law abrogated; the New Testament promised and given by God
Chapter 12. The Jews violate the eternal law, and interpret ill that of Moses
Chapter 13. Isaiah teaches that sins are forgiven through Christ's blood
Chapter 15. In what the true fasting consists
Chapter 16. Circumcision given as a sign, that the Jews might be driven away for their evil deeds done to Christ and the Christians
Chapter 17. The Jews sent persons through the whole earth to spread calumnies on Christians
Chapter 18. Christians would observe the law, if they did not know why it was instituted
Chapter 19. Circumcision unknown before Abraham. The law was given by Moses on account of the hardness of their hearts
Chapter 20. Why choice of meats was prescribed
Chapter 21. Sabbaths were instituted on account of the people's sins, and not for a work of righteousness
Chapter 22. So also were sacrifices and oblations
Chapter 23. The opinion of the Jews regarding the law does an injury to God
Chapter 24. The Christians' circumcision far more excellent
Chapter 25. The Jews boast in vain that they are sons of Abraham
Chapter 26. No salvation to the Jews except through Christ
Chapter 27. Why God taught the same things by the prophets as by Moses
Chapter 28. True righteousness is obtained by Christ
Chapter 29. Christ is useless to those who observe the law
Chapter 30. Christians possess the true righteousness
Chapter 31. If Christ's power be now so great, how much greater at the second advent!
Chapter 32. Trypho objecting that Christ is described as glorious by Daniel, Justin distinguishes two advents
Chapter 33. Psalm 110 is not spoken of Hezekiah. He proves that Christ was first humble, then shall be glorious
Chapter 34. Nor does Psalm 72 apply to Solomon, whose faults Christians shudder at
Chapter 35. Heretics confirm the Catholics in the faith
Chapter 36. He proves that Christ is called Lord of Hosts
Chapter 37. The same is proved from other Psalms
Chapter 38. It is an annoyance to the Jew that Christ is said to be adored. Justin confirms it, however, from Psalm 45
Chapter 39. The Jews hate the Christians who believe this. How great the distinction is between both!
Chapter 40. He returns to the Mosaic laws, and proves that they were figures of the things which pertain to Christ
Chapter 41. The oblation of fine flour was a figure of the Eucharist
Chapter 42. The bells on the priest's robe were a figure of the apostles
Chapter 43. He concludes that the law had an end in Christ, who was born of the Virgin
Chapter 44. The Jews in vain promise themselves salvation, which cannot be obtained except through Christ
Chapter 45. Those who were righteous before and under the law shall be saved by Christ
Chapter 46. Trypho asks whether a man who keeps the law even now will be saved. Justin proves that it contributes nothing to righteousness
Chapter 47. Justin communicates with Christians who observe the law. Not a few Catholics do otherwise
Chapter 48. Before the divinity of Christ is proved, he [Trypho] demands that it be settled that He is Christ
Chapter 49. To those who object that Elijah has not yet come, he replies that he is the precursor of the first advent
Chapter 50. It is proved from Isaiah that John is the precursor of Christ
Chapter 51. It is proved that this prophecy has been fulfilled
Chapter 52. Jacob predicted two advents of Christ
Chapter 53. Jacob predicted that Christ would ride on an ass, and Zechariah confirms it
Chapter 54. What the blood of the grape signifies
Chapter 55. Trypho asks that Christ be proved God, but without metaphor. Justin promises to do so
Chapter 56. God who appeared to Moses is distinguished from God the Father
Chapter 57. The Jew objects, why is He said to have eaten, if He be God? Answer of Justin
Chapter 58. The same is proved from the visions which appeared to Jacob
Chapter 59. God distinct from the Father conversed with Moses
Chapter 60. Opinions of the Jews with regard to Him who appeared in the bush
Chapter 61. Wisdom is begotten of the Father, as fire from fire
Chapter 62. The words Let Us make man agree with the testimony of Proverbs
Chapter 63. It is proved that this God was incarnate
Chapter 64. Justin adduces other proofs to the Jew, who denies that he needs this Christ
Chapter 65. The Jew objects that God does not give His glory to another. Justin explains the passage
Chapter 66. He proves from Isaiah that God was born from a virgin
Chapter 67. Trypho compares Jesus with Perseus; and would prefer [to say] that He was elected [to be Christ] on account of observance of the law. Justin speaks of the law as formerly
Chapter 68. He complains of the obstinacy of Trypho; he answers his objection; he convicts the Jews of bad faith
Chapter 69. The devil, since he emulates the truth, has invented fables about Bacchus, Hercules, and Æsculapius
Chapter 70. So also the mysteries of Mithras are distorted from the prophecies of Daniel and Isaiah
Chapter 71. The Jews reject the interpretation of the Septuagint, from which, moreover, they have taken away some passages
Chapter 72. Passages have been removed by the Jews from Esdras and Jeremiah
Chapter 73. [The words] From the wood have been cut out of Psalm 96
Chapter 74. The beginning of Psalm 96 is attributed to the Father [by Trypho]. But [it refers] to Christ by these words: Tell among the nations that the Lord, etc
Chapter 75. It is proved that Jesus was the name of God in the book of Exodus
Chapter 76. From other passages the same majesty and government of Christ are proved
Chapter 77. He returns to explain the prophecy of Isaiah
Chapter 78. He proves that this prophecy harmonizes with Christ alone, from what is afterwards written
Chapter 79. He proves against Trypho that the wicked angels have revolted from God
Chapter 80. The opinion of Justin with regard to the reign of a thousand years. Several Catholics reject it
Chapter 81. He endeavours to prove this opinion from Isaiah and the Apocalypse
Chapter 82. The prophetical gifts of the Jews were transferred to the Christians
Chapter 83. It is proved that the Psalm, The Lord said to My Lord, etc., does not suit Hezekiah
Chapter 84. That prophecy, Behold, a virgin, etc., suits Christ alone
Chapter 85. He proves that Christ is the Lord of Hosts from Psalm 24, and from his authority over demons
Chapter 86. There are various figures in the Old Testament of the wood of the cross by which Christ reigned
Chapter 87. Trypho maintains in objection these words: And shall rest on Him, etc. They are explained by Justin
Chapter 88. Christ has not received the Holy Spirit on account of poverty
Chapter 89. The cross alone is offensive to Trypho on account of the curse, yet it proves that Jesus is Christ
Chapter 90. The stretched-out hands of Moses signified beforehand the cross
Chapter 91. The cross was foretold in the blessings of Joseph, and in the serpent that was lifted up
Chapter 92. Unless the scriptures be understood through God's great grace, God will not appear to have taught always the same righteousness
Chapter 93. The same kind of righteousness is bestowed on all. Christ comprehends it in two precepts
Chapter 94. In what sense he who hangs on a tree is cursed
Chapter 95. Christ took upon Himself the curse due to us
Chapter 96. That curse was a prediction of the things which the Jews would do
Chapter 97. Other predictions of the cross of Christ
Chapter 98. Predictions of Christ in Psalm 22
Chapter 99. In the commencement of the Psalm are Christ's dying words
Chapter 100. In what sense Christ is [called] Jacob, and Israel, and Son of Man
Chapter 101. Christ refers all things to the Father
Chapter 102. The prediction of the events which happened to Christ when He was born. Why God permitted it
Chapter 103. The Pharisees are the bulls: the roaring lion is Herod or the devil
Chapter 104. Circumstances of Christ's death are predicted in this Psalm
Chapter 105. The Psalm also predicts the crucifixion and the subject of the last prayers of Christ on Earth
Chapter 106. Christ's resurrection is foretold in the conclusion of the Psalm
Chapter 107. The same is taught from the history of Jonah
Chapter 108. The resurrection of Christ did not convert the Jews. But through the whole world they have sent men to accuse Christ
Chapter 109. The conversion of the Gentiles has been predicted by Micah
Chapter 110. A portion of the prophecy already fulfilled in the Christians: the rest shall be fulfilled at the second advent
Chapter 111. The two advents were signified by the two goats. Other figures of the first advent, in which the Gentiles are freed by the blood of Christ
Chapter 112. The Jews expound these signs jejunely and feebly, and take up their attention only with insignificant matters
Chapter 113. Joshua was a figure of Christ
Chapter 114. Some rules for discerning what is said about Christ. The circumcision of the Jews is very different from that which Christians receive
Chapter 115. Prediction about the Christians in Zechariah. The malignant way which the Jews have in disputations
Chapter 116. It is shown how this prophecy suits the Christians
Chapter 117. Malachi's prophecy concerning the sacrifices of the Christians. It cannot be taken as referring to the prayers of Jews of the dispersion
Chapter 118. He exhorts to repentance before Christ comes; in whom Christians, since they believe, are far more religious than Jews
Chapter 119. Christians are the holy people promised to Abraham. They have been called like Abraham
Chapter 120. Christians were promised to Isaac, Jacob, and Judah
Chapter 121. From the fact that the Gentiles believe in Jesus, it is evident that He is Christ
Chapter 122. The Jews understand this of the proselytes without reason
Chapter 123. Ridiculous interpretations of the Jews. Christians are the true Israel
Chapter 124. Christians are the sons of God
Chapter 125. He explains what force the word Israel has, and how it suits Christ
Chapter 126. The various names of Christ according to both natures. It is shown that He is God, and appeared to the patriarchs
Chapter 127. These passages of Scripture do not apply to the Father, but to the Word
Chapter 128. The Word is sent not as an inanimate power, but as a person begotten of the Father's substance
Chapter 129. That is confirmed from other passages of Scripture
Chapter 130. He returns to the conversion of the Gentiles, and shows that it was foretold
Chapter 131. How much more faithful to God the Gentiles are who are converted to Christ than the Jews
Chapter 132. How great the power was of the name of Jesus in the Old Testament
Chapter 133. The hard-heartedness of the Jews, for whom the Christians pray
Chapter 134. The marriages of Jacob are a figure of the Church
Chapter 135. Christ is king of Israel, and Christians are the Israelitic race
Chapter 136. The Jews, in rejecting Christ, rejected God who sent him
Chapter 137. He exhorts the Jews to be converted
Chapter 138. Noah is a figure of Christ, who has regenerated us by water, and faith, and wood: [i.e., the cross.]
Chapter 139. The blessings, and also the curse, pronounced by Noah were prophecies of the future
Chapter 140. In Christ all are free. The Jews hope for salvation in vain because they are sons of Abraham
Chapter 141. Free-will in men and angels
Chapter 142. The Jews return thanks, and leave Justin

Chrestianity + Judaisation (wholly unsupported by the Masoretic Text yet "justifixed" by the LXX) = Christianity

Go by the "prophecies" in the NT, in the original Greek, and you will find that they perfectly align with the LXX.
Then compare those LXX verses with the MT, and likely Charles will be of great use there, and you'll find that the MT very much disagrees with the LXX.
And the real Judaic roots are in the Masoretic text and not the LXX of course, regardless of which creation fable for either you support: it is irrefutable that the MT preceded the LXX

Even Justin Martyr denies the Judaics any and all Christian roots - and Lawd knows that he supposedly is the primary stakeholder to embrace them with all his heart - yet he doesn't, he vehemently rejects them instead

The LXX and the Patristics are the only place where the alleged Judaic roots to Christianity can be found, and while the former disagrees with THE true source to Judaism, namely the Masoretic Text, the latter disagrees with THE constituents of Judaism, namely the Judaics

...but that does not, to my thinking, mean Rome was able to enslave... to occupy.... the Jewish mind.

Justin wholly agrees with you, and he even testifies to the very fact that no Judaic was tricked by the Christian hoax (although he likes to phrase that somewhat differently).
And 1.5 millennium of history hasn't changed anyone's view on that: there never were, have been or ever will be any Judaics to do anything differently (save for a handful of gullible Americans, but let's not treat those as a measure for anything)

[maryhelena]

Just a note to anyone following this thread... I don't support any theory related to a Roman conspiracy to invent Christianity. Others posting on this thread might do so..... Just want to be clear that I don't.

My interest is in researching Jewish roots leading up to what became Christianity. Of course Rome is involved in the Jesus story due to its occupation of Judaea..... but that does not, to my thinking, mean Rome was able to enslave... to occupy.... the Jewish mind.

I didn't think you did or would, maryhelena. Nor do I think myself that Romans invented Christianity from scratch.
But it is precisely the complete absence of Judaic rooters that turns the whole Judeo-Christian story into a fable.
I mean, just read the chapter headings from Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho and it is blatantly obvious that the roots to Christianity were taken from the Tanakh and falsified to the hilarious extent that Justin is blaming the Judaics of having removed material from their very own Hebrew Bible

Chapter 1. Introduction
Chapter 2. Justin describes his studies in philosophy
Chapter 3. Justin narrates the manner of his conversion
Chapter 4. The soul of itself cannot see God
Chapter 5. The soul is not in its own nature immortal
Chapter 6. These things were unknown to Plato and other philosophers
Chapter 7. The knowledge of truth to be sought from the prophets alone
Chapter 8. Justin by his colloquy is kindled with love to Christ
Chapter 9. The Christians have not believed groundless stories
Chapter 10. Trypho blames the Christians for this alone— the non-observance of the law
Chapter 11. The law abrogated; the New Testament promised and given by God
Chapter 12. The Jews violate the eternal law, and interpret ill that of Moses
Chapter 13. Isaiah teaches that sins are forgiven through Christ's blood
Chapter 15. In what the true fasting consists
Chapter 16. Circumcision given as a sign, that the Jews might be driven away for their evil deeds done to Christ and the Christians
Chapter 17. The Jews sent persons through the whole earth to spread calumnies on Christians
Chapter 18. Christians would observe the law, if they did not know why it was instituted
Chapter 19. Circumcision unknown before Abraham. The law was given by Moses on account of the hardness of their hearts
Chapter 20. Why choice of meats was prescribed
Chapter 21. Sabbaths were instituted on account of the people's sins, and not for a work of righteousness
Chapter 22. So also were sacrifices and oblations
Chapter 23. The opinion of the Jews regarding the law does an injury to God
Chapter 24. The Christians' circumcision far more excellent
Chapter 25. The Jews boast in vain that they are sons of Abraham
Chapter 26. No salvation to the Jews except through Christ
Chapter 27. Why God taught the same things by the prophets as by Moses
Chapter 28. True righteousness is obtained by Christ
Chapter 29. Christ is useless to those who observe the law
Chapter 30. Christians possess the true righteousness
Chapter 31. If Christ's power be now so great, how much greater at the second advent!
Chapter 32. Trypho objecting that Christ is described as glorious by Daniel, Justin distinguishes two advents
Chapter 33. Psalm 110 is not spoken of Hezekiah. He proves that Christ was first humble, then shall be glorious
Chapter 34. Nor does Psalm 72 apply to Solomon, whose faults Christians shudder at
Chapter 35. Heretics confirm the Catholics in the faith
Chapter 36. He proves that Christ is called Lord of Hosts
Chapter 37. The same is proved from other Psalms
Chapter 38. It is an annoyance to the Jew that Christ is said to be adored. Justin confirms it, however, from Psalm 45
Chapter 39. The Jews hate the Christians who believe this. How great the distinction is between both!
Chapter 40. He returns to the Mosaic laws, and proves that they were figures of the things which pertain to Christ
Chapter 41. The oblation of fine flour was a figure of the Eucharist
Chapter 42. The bells on the priest's robe were a figure of the apostles
Chapter 43. He concludes that the law had an end in Christ, who was born of the Virgin
Chapter 44. The Jews in vain promise themselves salvation, which cannot be obtained except through Christ
Chapter 45. Those who were righteous before and under the law shall be saved by Christ
Chapter 46. Trypho asks whether a man who keeps the law even now will be saved. Justin proves that it contributes nothing to righteousness
Chapter 47. Justin communicates with Christians who observe the law. Not a few Catholics do otherwise
Chapter 48. Before the divinity of Christ is proved, he [Trypho] demands that it be settled that He is Christ
Chapter 49. To those who object that Elijah has not yet come, he replies that he is the precursor of the first advent
Chapter 50. It is proved from Isaiah that John is the precursor of Christ
Chapter 51. It is proved that this prophecy has been fulfilled
Chapter 52. Jacob predicted two advents of Christ
Chapter 53. Jacob predicted that Christ would ride on an ass, and Zechariah confirms it
Chapter 54. What the blood of the grape signifies
Chapter 55. Trypho asks that Christ be proved God, but without metaphor. Justin promises to do so
Chapter 56. God who appeared to Moses is distinguished from God the Father
Chapter 57. The Jew objects, why is He said to have eaten, if He be God? Answer of Justin
Chapter 58. The same is proved from the visions which appeared to Jacob
Chapter 59. God distinct from the Father conversed with Moses
Chapter 60. Opinions of the Jews with regard to Him who appeared in the bush
Chapter 61. Wisdom is begotten of the Father, as fire from fire
Chapter 62. The words Let Us make man agree with the testimony of Proverbs
Chapter 63. It is proved that this God was incarnate
Chapter 64. Justin adduces other proofs to the Jew, who denies that he needs this Christ
Chapter 65. The Jew objects that God does not give His glory to another. Justin explains the passage
Chapter 66. He proves from Isaiah that God was born from a virgin
Chapter 67. Trypho compares Jesus with Perseus; and would prefer [to say] that He was elected [to be Christ] on account of observance of the law. Justin speaks of the law as formerly
Chapter 68. He complains of the obstinacy of Trypho; he answers his objection; he convicts the Jews of bad faith
Chapter 69. The devil, since he emulates the truth, has invented fables about Bacchus, Hercules, and Æsculapius
Chapter 70. So also the mysteries of Mithras are distorted from the prophecies of Daniel and Isaiah
Chapter 71. The Jews reject the interpretation of the Septuagint, from which, moreover, they have taken away some passages
Chapter 72. Passages have been removed by the Jews from Esdras and Jeremiah
Chapter 73. [The words] From the wood have been cut out of Psalm 96
Chapter 74. The beginning of Psalm 96 is attributed to the Father [by Trypho]. But [it refers] to Christ by these words: Tell among the nations that the Lord, etc
Chapter 75. It is proved that Jesus was the name of God in the book of Exodus
Chapter 76. From other passages the same majesty and government of Christ are proved
Chapter 77. He returns to explain the prophecy of Isaiah
Chapter 78. He proves that this prophecy harmonizes with Christ alone, from what is afterwards written
Chapter 79. He proves against Trypho that the wicked angels have revolted from God
Chapter 80. The opinion of Justin with regard to the reign of a thousand years. Several Catholics reject it
Chapter 81. He endeavours to prove this opinion from Isaiah and the Apocalypse
Chapter 82. The prophetical gifts of the Jews were transferred to the Christians
Chapter 83. It is proved that the Psalm, The Lord said to My Lord, etc., does not suit Hezekiah
Chapter 84. That prophecy, Behold, a virgin, etc., suits Christ alone
Chapter 85. He proves that Christ is the Lord of Hosts from Psalm 24, and from his authority over demons
Chapter 86. There are various figures in the Old Testament of the wood of the cross by which Christ reigned
Chapter 87. Trypho maintains in objection these words: And shall rest on Him, etc. They are explained by Justin
Chapter 88. Christ has not received the Holy Spirit on account of poverty
Chapter 89. The cross alone is offensive to Trypho on account of the curse, yet it proves that Jesus is Christ
Chapter 90. The stretched-out hands of Moses signified beforehand the cross
Chapter 91. The cross was foretold in the blessings of Joseph, and in the serpent that was lifted up
Chapter 92. Unless the scriptures be understood through God's great grace, God will not appear to have taught always the same righteousness
Chapter 93. The same kind of righteousness is bestowed on all. Christ comprehends it in two precepts
Chapter 94. In what sense he who hangs on a tree is cursed
Chapter 95. Christ took upon Himself the curse due to us
Chapter 96. That curse was a prediction of the things which the Jews would do
Chapter 97. Other predictions of the cross of Christ
Chapter 98. Predictions of Christ in Psalm 22
Chapter 99. In the commencement of the Psalm are Christ's dying words
Chapter 100. In what sense Christ is [called] Jacob, and Israel, and Son of Man
Chapter 101. Christ refers all things to the Father
Chapter 102. The prediction of the events which happened to Christ when He was born. Why God permitted it
Chapter 103. The Pharisees are the bulls: the roaring lion is Herod or the devil
Chapter 104. Circumstances of Christ's death are predicted in this Psalm
Chapter 105. The Psalm also predicts the crucifixion and the subject of the last prayers of Christ on Earth
Chapter 106. Christ's resurrection is foretold in the conclusion of the Psalm
Chapter 107. The same is taught from the history of Jonah
Chapter 108. The resurrection of Christ did not convert the Jews. But through the whole world they have sent men to accuse Christ
Chapter 109. The conversion of the Gentiles has been predicted by Micah
Chapter 110. A portion of the prophecy already fulfilled in the Christians: the rest shall be fulfilled at the second advent
Chapter 111. The two advents were signified by the two goats. Other figures of the first advent, in which the Gentiles are freed by the blood of Christ
Chapter 112. The Jews expound these signs jejunely and feebly, and take up their attention only with insignificant matters
Chapter 113. Joshua was a figure of Christ
Chapter 114. Some rules for discerning what is said about Christ. The circumcision of the Jews is very different from that which Christians receive
Chapter 115. Prediction about the Christians in Zechariah. The malignant way which the Jews have in disputations
Chapter 116. It is shown how this prophecy suits the Christians
Chapter 117. Malachi's prophecy concerning the sacrifices of the Christians. It cannot be taken as referring to the prayers of Jews of the dispersion
Chapter 118. He exhorts to repentance before Christ comes; in whom Christians, since they believe, are far more religious than Jews
Chapter 119. Christians are the holy people promised to Abraham. They have been called like Abraham
Chapter 120. Christians were promised to Isaac, Jacob, and Judah
Chapter 121. From the fact that the Gentiles believe in Jesus, it is evident that He is Christ
Chapter 122. The Jews understand this of the proselytes without reason
Chapter 123. Ridiculous interpretations of the Jews. Christians are the true Israel
Chapter 124. Christians are the sons of God
Chapter 125. He explains what force the word Israel has, and how it suits Christ
Chapter 126. The various names of Christ according to both natures. It is shown that He is God, and appeared to the patriarchs
Chapter 127. These passages of Scripture do not apply to the Father, but to the Word
Chapter 128. The Word is sent not as an inanimate power, but as a person begotten of the Father's substance
Chapter 129. That is confirmed from other passages of Scripture
Chapter 130. He returns to the conversion of the Gentiles, and shows that it was foretold
Chapter 131. How much more faithful to God the Gentiles are who are converted to Christ than the Jews
Chapter 132. How great the power was of the name of Jesus in the Old Testament
Chapter 133. The hard-heartedness of the Jews, for whom the Christians pray
Chapter 134. The marriages of Jacob are a figure of the Church
Chapter 135. Christ is king of Israel, and Christians are the Israelitic race
Chapter 136. The Jews, in rejecting Christ, rejected God who sent him
Chapter 137. He exhorts the Jews to be converted
Chapter 138. Noah is a figure of Christ, who has regenerated us by water, and faith, and wood: [i.e., the cross.]
Chapter 139. The blessings, and also the curse, pronounced by Noah were prophecies of the future
Chapter 140. In Christ all are free. The Jews hope for salvation in vain because they are sons of Abraham
Chapter 141. Free-will in men and angels
Chapter 142. The Jews return thanks, and leave Justin

Chrestianity + Judaisation (wholly unsupported by the Masoretic Text yet "justifixed" by the LXX) = Christianity

Go by the "prophecies" in the NT, in the original Greek, and you will find that they perfectly align with the LXX.
Then compare those LXX verses with the MT, and likely Charles will be of great use there, and you'll find that the MT very much disagrees with the LXX.
And the real Judaic roots are in the Masoretic text and not the LXX of course, regardless of which creation fable for either you support: it is irrefutable that the MT preceded the LXX

Even Justin Martyr denies the Judaics any and all Christian roots - and Lawd knows that he supposedly is the primary stakeholder to embrace them with all his heart - yet he doesn't, he vehemently rejects them instead

The LXX and the Patristics are the only place where the alleged Judaic roots to Christianity can be found, and while the former disagrees with THE true source to Judaism, namely the Masoretic Text, the latter disagrees with THE constituents of Judaism, namely the Judaics

...but that does not, to my thinking, mean Rome was able to enslave... to occupy.... the Jewish mind.

Justin wholly agrees with you, and he even testifies to the very fact that no Judaic was tricked by the Christian hoax (although he likes to phrase that somewhat differently).
And 1.5 millennium of history hasn't changed anyone's view on that: there never were, have been or ever will be any Judaics to do anything differently (save for a handful of gullible Americans, but let's not treat those as a measure for anything)

My focus is the gospel story and Josephus. Enough there to keep my interest in Jewish roots to early Christian origins alive and well...

[schillingklaus]

The Jewish roots only exist in the phantasy of apologists. Others know that Jewish allusions were only a tool for appropriation.

[Leucius Charinus]

Do you think the TF is legit and Josephus referenced Jesus? Some people think John the Baptist was also interpolated into Josephus. And isn't James the Just one of the twelve which I thought you were happy to view as fictional along with Jesus and Paul?

Josephus makes mention of Jesus and his friends. Josephus has supported the gospel Jesus story - the 'historical fiction' - not providing that story with a historical stamp of approval. I think that a core TF is Josephan.

We may diverge on the authenticity of the TF which IMO was best summarised as "A rank forgery, and a very stupid one, too" by Bishop Warburton of Gloucester, in 1762.

Josephus is a big deal as far as researching the Jewish roots of early christianity. I think the OP post was probably my first effort in questioning the historicity of Josephus. Maybe you remember that thread of over 12 years ago - Essenes never existed, were a Josephan invention, claims Rachel Elior

https://bcharchive.org/2/thearchives/sh ... l?t=264056

Yes I remember the olde days.

[Leucius Charinus]

I am generally left with more questions at the end of the day than when I started the day. And this has been going on for a while. So I have never claimed any great degree of certainty. We may never know. But I like to know what the evidence is. Especially physical manuscripts, archeology and the non-Christian literary sources.

Be well.

Thank you, LC. I agree with you. We deal with Probabilities, not Certainties.

And in most cases the probabilities cannot be adequately computed simply because we have a great mass of unknowns since only a very very very small remnant of what once existed in history (especially ancient history) remains.

We must remember, however, that "Existence is not a Predicate". When "Jesus" appears and nothing that is came about except through him, "Other Functioning Cultures" need not function anymore.

This of course must include the Greek intellectual traditions, with their schools and education systems which were replaced in the 4th and 5th century with the One True Jesus Story Book and the Christian education system. The lights went out for over a thousand years. Alas.

[maryhelena]

The Jewish roots only exist in the phantasy of apologists. Others know that Jewish allusions were only a tool for appropriation.

There is only one way to cut off the Jewish roots of what became early christianity and that is to deny any connection between the gospel Jesus story and Josephus.

Ah, the TF is a whole cloth interpolation by Eusebius - the John the Baptist narrative is an interpolation and the James brother of Jesus narrative is discounted as not relevant at all. There you go - job done. Easy was it not ?


Ah - but it's Josephus that holds the Jewish cards not mythicists or antisemitic readers. It is his narratives, alongside Hasmonean/Jewish history, that nurture that Jewish root and allow it to sprout in the springtime. Cut it down again - and back up it will arise next springtime.

[Leucius Charinus]

The Jewish roots only exist in the phantasy of apologists. Others know that Jewish allusions were only a tool for appropriation.

Jewish roots were hijacked like a car in Grand Theft Auto.

[Leucius Charinus]

Ah - but it's Josephus that holds the Jewish cards not mythicists or antisemitic readers.

But Josephus was never preserved in Jewish circles only in Christian circles. So to some extent Christians like Eusebius and Origen hold these cards.

[maryhelena]

Ah - but it's Josephus that holds the Jewish cards not mythicists or antisemitic readers.

But Josephus was never preserved in Jewish circles only in Christian circles. So to some extent Christians like Eusebius and Origen hold these cards.

Antiquities is dated 93/94 c.e. The trump card stays with Josephus.