How much there is Saul in the epistles of Paul?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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Re: How much there is Saul in the epistles of Paul?

Post by Giuseppe »

Diogenes the Cynic wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 11:16 pm He never says that name in any of his letters. It makes sense as a literary device for the author of Acts.
I conclude otherwise when I realize that the sarcastic connection Paul==Simon Magus was based precisely on Saul.
Giuseppe
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Re: How much there is Saul in the epistles of Paul?

Post by Giuseppe »

The young (biblical) Saul who wants to find the donkeys of his father is the same Saul(-Paul) who wants to find the donations for the Pillars, since in Hebrew donkeys == gifts, donations.

It seems that, by removing every midrash based on the OT Saul from the epistles, then we have to remove:
  • the Paul persecutor (obvious)
  • the Paul who wants a collection of donations for the Pillars
The removal of a Paul giver of donations implies ipso facto the removal of a Paul who travels in search for the donations.

So the doubt is thrown also on the second visit of Paul to Jerusalem, since that visit ends with an apparent peace, but a such peace can't be original in the text, since it assumes that Paul agreed to find donations for the Pillars, which is blatantly false and based on king Saul.

So the doubt is thrown on Paul being very 'Paulus' for Marcion and not rather a different name.
Giuseppe
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Re: How much there is Saul in the epistles of Paul?

Post by Giuseppe »

If the Paul commissioned to find donations for the Pillars is then an invention based on king Saul searching for his donkeys (since 'donations' == 'donkeys' in Hebrew), then there is not more evidence of the historical Paul as described by Roger Parvus here:
My hypothesis supports Loisy’s claim that the real Paul was commissioned as an apostle in the same way that other early missionaries were: by being delegated for a mission by a congregation which supported him. And that the real Paul’s gospel was no different from theirs: the kingdom of God is at hand and Jesus will be coming to establish it

Giuseppe
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Re: How much there is Saul in the epistles of Paul?

Post by Giuseppe »

Saul is mentioned only twice in the Lieu's book (Marcion and the making of a heretic, p. 243):

For Marcion the letter to the Galatians established Paul’s pre-eminent authority as an apostle, ‘not from men nor through man but through Jesus Christ’ (Gal. 1.1; AM V. 1.3). Against him, Tertullian mocks the lack of prescience shown by a Christ who failed to avoid the need for a new apostle when he drew up the primary apostolic list recorded in the Gospel; he himself proposes the solution to the supposed dilemma to be its anticipation in Old Testament ‘prediction’, and hence its anticipation by the Creator (Gen. 49.27; 1 Sam. 24.18, ‘Saul’). This sets the pattern for their conflicting interpretations of the first two chapters of the letter; for Marcion these establish Paul’s reception of the Gospel truth and his resolute defence of it against its dereliction by the other apostles, but for Tertullian they demonstrate not merely the harmony between them all but Paul’s readiness to make concessions to the others in order to maintain it. Whereas Irenaeus had argued the former, namely apostolic harmony, by eliding Galatians with the Acts of the Apostles, in part ‘against those who say Paul alone knew the truth’ (AH III. 13.1), Tertullian is driven further by the need to construct from Paul’s own words a ‘Paul who is mine as is also the Christ’ (AM V. 1.8).

(my bold)

Tertullian is using this passage:

You [=David] have just now told me about the good you did to me; the Lord delivered me into your hands, but you did not kill me.

(1 Samuel 24:18)

...to persuade Marcion that the Saul's story has in nuce the choice of Paul as apostle of Christ.

It seems that, in order for Tertullian to persuade Marcion by using the Saul's story, Marcion is assumed to respect the same Saul's story. Was it really so?
Giuseppe
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Re: How much there is Saul in the epistles of Paul?

Post by Giuseppe »

The Tertullian's passage is the following:

Wherefore, O shipmaster of Pontus, if you have never taken on board your small craft any contraband goods or smuggler's cargo, if you have never thrown overboard or tampered with a freight, you are still more careful and conscientious, I doubt not, in divine things; and so I should be glad if you would inform us under what bill of lading you admitted the Apostle Paul on board, who ticketed him, what owner forwarded him, who handed him to you, that so you may land him without any misgiving, lest he should turn out to belong to him, who can substantiate his claim to him by producing all his apostolic writings. He professes himself to be an apostle — to use his own, words — not of men, nor by man, but by Jesus Christ. Of course, any one may make a profession concerning himself; but his profession is only rendered valid by the authority of a second person. One man signs, another countersigns; one man appends his seal, another registers in the public records. No one is at once a proposer and a seconder to himself. Besides, you have read, no doubt, that many shall come, saying, I am Christ. Luke 21:8 Now if any one can pretend that he is Christ, how much more might a man profess to be an apostle of Christ! But still, for my own part, I appear in the character of a disciple and an inquirer; that so I may even thus both refute your belief, who have nothing to support it, and confound your shamelessness, who make claims without possessing the means of establishing them. Let there be a Christ, let there be an apostle, although of another god; but what matter? since they are only to draw their proofs out of the Testament of the Creator. Because even the book of Genesis so long ago promised me the Apostle Paul. For among the types and prophetic blessings which he pronounced over his sons, Jacob, when he turned his attention to Benjamin, exclaimed, Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf; in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall impart nourishment. He foresaw that Paul would arise out of the tribe of Benjamin, a voracious wolf, devouring his prey in the morning: in order words, in the early period of his life he would devastate the Lord's sheep, as a persecutor of the churches; but in the evening he would give them nourishment, which means that in his declining years he would educate the fold of Christ, as the teacher of the Gentiles. Then, again, in Saul's conduct towards David, exhibited first in violent persecution of him, and then in remorse and reparation, on his receiving from him good for evil, we have nothing else than an anticipation of Paul in Saul — belonging, too, as they did, to the same tribe — and of Jesus in David, from whom He descended according to the Virgin's genealogy.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03125.htm

Could the Paul's independance come from Saul, then? If it can be proved via midrash, then it would prove that also Marcion was deriving Paul from the same Saul's story.
Giuseppe
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Re: How much there is Saul in the epistles of Paul?

Post by Giuseppe »

Now, prof Vinzent has pointed out that Paul was the first apostle to emphasize very a lot the resurrection. For Vinzent, that was the reason why only by Marcion brandishing Paul, the leit motif of the resurrection emerges in full light only in full second century, in full anti-marcionite polemic.

Prof Vinzent has a curious precursor in this view of Paul as only apostle obsessed with the resurrection of Jesus: Bernard Dubourg.

Par réemploi inversé (inversif) des caractéristiques du Shéol qu'il est, l'apotre a pour seconde mission la charge d'annoncer la résurrection.

(L'invention de Jésus, t. II, p. 263, my bold)
  • (1) Saul == Sheol
  • (2) The denial of Sheol is the resurrection
therefore, from (1) and (2) it follows that Paul has to preach the resurrection. Only him.

But where the independance of Paul in all this?

I am remembered that the mythicist William B. Smith, the famous author of Ecce Deus, insisted on the original meaning of resurrection, anastasis, as synonimous of an insurrection.

What if the resurrection is also an act of liberation, an insurrection, against a previous place of captivity?

We would have:
  • (1) Saul == Sheol
  • (2) Sheol == place of captivity, imprisonment, a prison
  • (3) The denial of a prison is the freedom
therefore, from (1) and (2) and (3) it follows that Paul is the apostle of the freedom par excellence, the Independent Apostle by definition.

So now it may be resolved the mystery of a Marcion who brandishes the Paul Independent Apostle, without never mentioning his previous name:

Marcion didn't mention his previous name (=Saul) since for him Paul is the anti-Sheol, the "not-more-Sheol", the exact contrary of the Death and Slavery.

The following saying fits perfectly the Marcion's silence about the name of Saul for Paul:

Cum tacet, clamat.
Giuseppe
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Re: How much there is Saul in the epistles of Paul?

Post by Giuseppe »

Mergui has a different reason for the independance of the apostle:

Liberté : Attribut de Paul en tant qu’il est envoyé (verbe shalaH). Ce verbe signifie aussi libéré. Référence : Ne suis-je pas libre ? Ne suis-je pas apôtre ? (1Co 9,1)

https://www.lechampdumidrash.net/le-mid ... ashique-1/

• Liberté : Paul dit en 1Co 9,1 : Ne suis-je pas libre ? Ne suis-je pas apôtre ? Les deux attributs sont associés, car ils traduisent tous deux le mot shaliaH qui a les deux sens : “envoyé” et “libéré”.

https://www.lechampdumidrash.net/le-mid ... paulinien/
Gd1234
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Re: How much there is Saul in the epistles of Paul?

Post by Gd1234 »

I think someone said saul and paul were same name..saul being hebrew and paul being greek

This article may be helpful.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/arti ... e-apostle/
Giuseppe
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Re: How much there is Saul in the epistles of Paul?

Post by Giuseppe »

Gd1234 wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:49 pm I think someone said saul and paul were same name..saul being hebrew and paul being greek

This article may be helpful.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/arti ... e-apostle/
unfortunately the article doesn't say what is precisely the relation between the two names.

Surely the name PAULUS finds in itself his explanation:

• Paul : Héros midrashique des Actes. Du latin «paulus» : petit. Agent narratif d’un triple récit : celui de la conversion généralisée, du remplacement prochain des Juifs par les païens, et de la fin du pouvoir de la mort (ou de l’idolâtrie, au choix)

https://www.lechampdumidrash.net/le-mid ... paulinien/

The Parable of the Seed comes in mind. The presence of "paulus" in 1 Samuel 2 is therefore very a mere fortuite banal coincidence. Said by one who hardly believes in coincidences.
:(
Gd1234
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Re: How much there is Saul in the epistles of Paul?

Post by Gd1234 »

Another correlation i found in james tabor book "paul and saul"
That Paul’s Hebrew name was Saul we have no reason to doubt. Paul says he is of the tribe of Benjamin, and Saul, the first king of Israel, was also a Benjaminite, so one could see why a Jewish family would choose this particular name for a favored son (1 Samuel 9:21). Since Paul reports that he regularly did manual labor to support himself, and Jewish sons were normally taught some trade to supplement their studies, it is possible he was trained as a leather worker. There is an early rabbinic saying that “he who does not teach his son a trade teaches him banditry.”
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