Carrier, 1 Clement and the gospels

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GakuseiDon
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Carrier, 1 Clement and the gospels

Post by GakuseiDon »

I've created this new thread as a tangent on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10297

Here I'll be looking at Dr Carrier's article "How We Can Know 1 Clement Was Actually Written in the 60s AD", and comments in the article about 1 Clement's use of quotes from Jesus. While Carrier's article is about the dating of 1 Clement, the question of the date that 1 Clement was written isn't a concern here.

Carrier's article is here: https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/22313

Some of the comments Carrier makes about Gospels (note that Carrier also quotes himself from his book "On the Historicity of Jesus":
Finally, 1 Clement knows nothing in the Gospels—evidently, those stories hadn’t been invented yet...

1 Clement “never once places Jesus in history or ever tells any stories about him, never uses his stories as an example for anything (despite the letter being a long series of arguments by example), nor ever quotes anything Jesus says in the Gospels” even when it would clinch several of its arguments (OHJ, p. 309). Indeed, “of all the dozens of stories Clement summarizes as examples for Christians to follow, all come from” the Old Testament and recent martyrology, “none from any Gospel or anything in the life of Jesus” (Ibid., p. 314)...

I list many specific examples of Clement’s ignorance of the Gospels in OHJ (Ch. 8.5): [Note: I've snipped some of them - GDon]

* Sayings of Jesus are quoted, but never anything from the Gospels; rather they simply quote the Old Testament (see The Original Scriptural Concept of ‘The Lord’ Jesus), as in §8, §22, §24-26, §30, §45, or otherwise unknown sayings.

* For example, Clement once quotes Jesus’s commandments not matching any Gospel (§13)—and even though each commandment on his list is expanded into more elaborate teachings, parables and stories in the Gospels, Clement never uses or references any of them.

* Clement also quotes the line from the Psalms as about Jesus, “Thou art my Son, today have I begotten Thee” (§36, §59), yet he has no evident knowledge this comes from a story of his Baptism; he only knows of it from the Psalms.

* Even the lone exception evinces no knowledge of the Gospels: the “Woe to that man!” saying Clement has no idea of ever being connected to Judas (§46), but instead knows only as a preface to the “millstone” prophecy, which the Gospels relocate to an entirely different place and story, which Clement also exhibits no knowledge of (OHJ, pp. 311–12).
Note that Carrier means the written Gospels when he argues that 1 Clement has no knowledge of the Gospels. From this, he concludes:
1 Clement’s complete ignorance of the contents of the Gospels and the Jewish War and its outcomes unquestionably dates it prior to both; while its mention of Paul’s recent death ensures it post-dates his authentic letters, which were completed by the end of the 50s, leaving the early 60s as the only possible date of 1 Clement’s writing.
Here are passages from 1 Clement, followed by similar passages found within the Gospels:

... being especially mindful of the words of the Lord Jesus which He spoke, teaching us meekness and long-suffering. For thus He spoke: "Be merciful, that you may obtain mercy; forgive, that it may be forgiven to you; as you do, so shall it be done to you; as you judge, so shall you be judged; as you are kind, so shall kindness be shown to you; with what measure you measure, with the same it shall be measured to you." By this precept and by these rules let us establish ourselves, that we walk with all humility in obedience to His holy words. For the holy word says, "On whom shall I look, but on him that is meek and peaceable, and who trembles at My words?"

Luke 6:36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. 37 Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.”…

Matt 7:1 “Do not judge, or you will be judged. 2For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.…

Mar 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.


Remember the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, how He said, "Woe to that man [by whom offences come]! It were better for him that he had never been born, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of my elect. Yea, it were better for him that a millstone should be hung about [his neck], and he should be sunk in the depths of the sea, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of my little ones.

Mark 14:21 but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.


Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible.
23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything in advance.


Jacob, through reason of his brother, went forth with humility from his own land, and came to Laban and served him; and there was given to him the sceptre of the twelve tribes of Israel... from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh.

Mat 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

Luk 3:34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor


Your mileage may vary with regards to the strengths of the parallels. Note that Carrier himself attempts to explain why those quotes aren't coming from written Gospels. But if they aren't quotes from the written Gospels, then they appear to be coming from a common source. 1 Clement mentions "Gospel" twice:

The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so] from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God...

Take up the epistle of the blessed Apostle Paul. What did he write to you at the time when the Gospel first began to be preached? Truly, under the inspiration of the Spirit, he wrote to you concerning himself, and Cephas, and Apollos, because even then parties had been formed among you.

"Gospel" here appears to mean the message rather than written texts. So it may mean oral traditions, or written texts that are yet to be called "Gospels". If, as Carrier believes, the Gospels hadn't been written yet, it suggests to me good evidence for oral tradition.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Carrier, 1 Clement and the gospels

Post by MrMacSon »

GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:18 pm
... 1 Clement mentions "Gospel" twice:


[42.1-2]
The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so] from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God...

[47.1-4]
Take up the epistle of the blessed Apostle Paul. What did he write to you at the time when the Gospel first began to be preached? Truly, under the inspiration of the Spirit, he wrote to you concerning himself, and Cephas, and Apollos, because even then parties had been formed among you.


"Gospel" here appears to mean the message rather than written texts ...

Ben C Smith's Greek version - http://www.textexcavation.com/greekclement33-48.html - has

42.1
Οι αποστολοι ημιν ευηγγελισθησαν απο του κυριου Ιησου Χριστου, Ιησους ο Χριστος απο του θεου αξεπεμφθη

47.2
τι πρωτον υμιν εν αρχη του ευαγγελιου εγραψεν

ie. euangelion in 47.2 but a hard to determine word in 42.1: ευηγγελισθησαν

The printed Loeb version - https://archive.org/details/apostolicfa ... 8/mode/2up - has the same, ευηγγελισθησαν, but does translate it as Gospel
Last edited by MrMacSon on Fri Jan 06, 2023 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Carrier, 1 Clement and the gospels

Post by MrMacSon »

GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:18 pm
Here are passages from 1 Clement, followed by similar passages found within the Gospels:

1 Clement 13.1b-2 (Roberts-Donaldson):
... being especially mindful of the words of the Lord Jesus which He spoke, teaching us meekness and long-suffering. For thus He spoke: "Be merciful, that you may obtain mercy; forgive, that it may be forgiven to you; as you do, so shall it be done to you; as you judge, so shall you be judged; as you are kind, so shall kindness be shown to you; with what measure you measure, with the same it shall be measured to you." By this precept and by these rules let us establish ourselves, that we walk with all humility in obedience to His holy words. For the holy word says, "On whom shall I look, but on him that is meek and peaceable, and who trembles at My words?"

Luke 6:36 "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. 37 Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you … ”

Matt 7:1 Do not judge, or you will be judged. 2 For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you ..."

Mark 4:24 And he said unto them, "Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given."



1 Clement 46.8 (Roberts-Donaldson)
Remember the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, how He said, "Woe to that man [by whom offences come]! It were better for him that he had never been born, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of my elect. Yea, it were better for him that a millstone should be hung about [his neck], and he should be sunk in the depths of the sea, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of my little ones."

Mark 14:21 "but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born."

Mark 9:42 "And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea."



1 Clement 44.1-2 (Roberts-Donaldson)
Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything in advance.



1 Clement 31.4 - 32.2 (Roberts-Donaldson):

Jacob through reason of his brother, went forth with humility from his own land, and came to Laban and served him; and there was given to him the sceptre of the twelve tribes of Israel.

Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, "Your seed shall be as the stars of heaven" ...


Matt 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren

Luke 3:34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor





Your mileage may vary with regards to the strengths of the parallels.

I don't see those last two ie.
  • 1 Clement 31.4; 32.2 and < Matt 1:2 and Luke 3:34 > and
  • 1 Clement 44.1-2 and Mark 13:22-23
A key question for the first two, which seem likely, is: what direction was the use?
ie. Did Clement use the Gospels? or; Did the Gospel authors use Clement?
or; Did they use a 'common source'?

That, in both cases, the parallels are from pronouncements of Jesus seems noteworthy
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Re: Carrier, 1 Clement and the gospels

Post by Jonas_Koenig »

MrMacSon,

1 Clement 47.2 could be referring to 1 Corinthians as a 'gospel,' since the issue of factionalism comes up immediately in 1:10 (after the obligatory greetings and thanksgiving). Or it could be referring to the message contained there. It is difficult to know what do with the redundancy of πρῶτον and ἀρχῇ and also how to coordinate the dative arche with the following genitive phrase. I'll stay agnostic on that one, but either way it is not referring to Matthew Mark Luke or John.

1 Clement 42.1 The translation you quoted for this verse does not work. εὐηγγελίσθησαν is the 3p aorist passive indicative. ἡμῖν can't be the subject due to the dative case. The apostles can't be either (they are the grammatical subject but since the verb is passive they are not the subject of the verb's action). Lightfoot's translation is better: "The Apostles received the Gospel for us from the Lord Jesus Christ." Since "received" is only necessary for translating the passive into English, we can ignore that. The apostles were preached good news by the Lord Jesus Christ. This isn't referring to a text or genre but to the content of Jesus's message.

Oral tradition seems most likely here, or at least the tradition that there was an oral tradition.
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Re: Carrier, 1 Clement and the gospels

Post by MrMacSon »

Jonas_Koenig wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 12:41 am
MrMacSon,

1 Clement 47.2 could be referring to 1 Corinthians as a 'gospel,' since the issue of factionalism comes up immediately in 1:10 (after the obligatory greetings and thanksgiving). Or it could be referring to the message contained there. It is difficult to know what do with the redundancy of πρῶτον and ἀρχῇ and also how to coordinate the dative arche with the following genitive phrase. I'll stay agnostic on that one, but either way it is not referring to Matthew Mark Luke or John.

1 Clement 42.1 The translation you quoted for this verse does not work. εὐηγγελίσθησαν is the 3p aorist passive indicative. ἡμῖν can't be the subject due to the dative case. The apostles can't be either (they are the grammatical subject but since the verb is passive they are not the subject of the verb's action). Lightfoot's translation is better: "The Apostles received the Gospel for us from the Lord Jesus Christ." Since "received" is only necessary for translating the passive into English, we can ignore that. The apostles were preached good news by the Lord Jesus Christ. This isn't referring to a text or genre but to the content of Jesus's message.

Oral tradition seems most likely here, or at least the tradition that there was an oral tradition.

Cheers, Jonas. I've added the url to Ben Smith's web page above ie. http://www.textexcavation.com/greekclement33-48.html

But it's worth noting re 1 Clement 42.1, that the Loeb version - https://archive.org/details/apostolicfa ... 8/mode/2up - is exactly the same

Yes, I thought that, "The apostles were preached good news by the Lord Jesus Christ," might be a better representation
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Re: Carrier, 1 Clement and the gospels

Post by GakuseiDon »

MrMacSon wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 9:30 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:18 pmYour mileage may vary with regards to the strengths of the parallels.
I don't see those last two ie.
  • 1 Clement 31.4; 32.2 and < Matt 1:2 and Luke 3:34 > and
  • 1 Clement 44.1-2 and Mark 13:22-23
For 1 Clement's "From him [Judah] also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh" there is also:

Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Mat 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.


It speaks to a common theme, but I agree that it is hard to find meaning in those parallels. It's easy to point out parallels, but not so easy to extract meaning from them.

As for 1 Clement 44.1-2 "Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ... as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this", that speaks to some kind of oral tradition. I think there is meaning in the parallel in Mark 13:22, since it has Jesus saying "I have told you everything in advance" on a similar topic. Even if the parallel is meaningless, 1 Clement on its own is hinting at oral teachings being passed on.
MrMacSon wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 9:30 pmA key question for the first two, which seem likely, is: what direction was the use?
ie. Did Clement use the Gospels? or; Did the Gospel authors use Clement?
or; Did they use a 'common source'?

That, in both cases, the parallels are from pronouncements of Jesus seems noteworthy
Yes, each direction has implications. And then the possible dating impacts on the implications of those directions. At the least, 1 Clement is pointing to the written Gospels and 1 Clement having a common source, at least for those two quotes of Jesus in 1 Clement.

Determining the implications of these texts, regardless of whether the theory is historicism or mythicism, is something that we need to keep an eye on. For example, questions get raised about why Paul is silent about the actions and sayings of the ministry of Jesus. Why doesn't Paul mention the ministry of Jesus? It's hard to explain!

But then the theory is raised that Marcion wrote the letters of Paul while he had a written Gospel in front of him, and that Gospel has a Jesus with a ministry on earth. Suddenly the strangeness of why the letters of Paul don't include details of a ministry is no longer relevant! At least, no-one seems to feel the need to explain this.

Similarly with Dr Carrier's conclusion that 1 Clement doesn't use the written Gospels to date it to the 60s. What was the common source that 1 Clement and the written Gospels used? Where did it come from? It's not something that goes against mythicism necessarily, but it is an implication from his analysis. If Carrier-mythicism wins the day and becomes mainstream, it will be one of the questions to be raised.
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Re: Carrier, 1 Clement and the gospels

Post by Giuseppe »

GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 1:13 amWhat was the common source that 1 Clement and the written Gospels used? Where did it come from?
my vote is that "Clement" and Justin were deriving from the same source: a collection of midrashical stories that "were some kind of dress-rehearsal for the gospels" (quote).

It seems to me that Justin and 1 Clement didn't fear to quote from these sources, as if they were sure about the fact that these sources didn't constitute a serious threat to their Judaizing faith...

In other terms: without these stories, they would have given up probably to the entire project of sanitizing the Evangelion and Paul.
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Re: Carrier, 1 Clement and the gospels

Post by Sinouhe »

Given that :
  • - Paul uses pseudo mystical revelations to compose his few Jesus teachings
  • - Mark uses Paul's teachings to put them into Jesus' mouth
  • - Matthew uses the teachings of the epistle of James to put them into Jesus’ mouth
I guess we are dealing here with a dependence of Mark, Luke and Matthew on Clement.

And Clement must certainly have taken these verses from a hypothetical oral tradition based on pseudo revelations like Paul.

Or he simply composed these verses himself.
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Re: Carrier, 1 Clement and the gospels

Post by MrMacSon »

GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 1:13 am
For 1 Clement's "From him [Jacob] also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh" there is also:

Hebrews 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Matthew 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

It speaks to a common theme, but I agree that it is hard to find meaning in those parallels. It's easy to point out parallels, but not so easy to extract meaning from them.

I agree, though that 1 Clement 32.2 is a reference to Jacob - from the end of 1 Clem 31 - not Judah
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Re: Carrier, 1 Clement and the gospels

Post by GakuseiDon »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 2:19 amI agree, though that 1 Clement 32.2 is a reference to Jacob - from the end of 1 Clem 31 - not Judah
Oops! My mistake. Nice catch, thanks MrMacSon. :thumbup: I'll update my notes. I got a bit confused with the quote in 1 Clement. The full quote is:

Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him [Jacob] have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah.

But it's not directly claiming Jesus was of the race of Judah, as per my note above.
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