Pauline epistles pre vs. post war

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Giuseppe
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Re: Pauline epistles pre vs. post war

Post by Giuseppe »

rgprice wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 12:56 pm

B> Arguments in favor of the Pauline letters having originated in the first century, prior to the First Jewish-Roman War:
1) Tradition - enough said
not a true argument, obviously.
rgprice wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 12:56 pm
2) Aretas reference in 2 Cor 11 being Aretas IV - who reigned from 9 BC to 40 CE.
My debunking of this argument here.
rgprice wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 12:56 pm
3) Mentions of going to Jerusalem in Galatians, 1 Cor and Romans imply a functioning city not under occupation.
Jews didn't abandon entirely Jerusalem before 135. And Gentiles were invited to go there, after the 135.
rgprice wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 12:56 pm
4) The general lack of overt discussion about the war or the destruction of the temple. Some passage that imply strongly the war has not yet occurred, e.g. 1 Cor 10.
This is the true real only strong argument for a Paul pre-70.

I note that this passage:

2 Corinthians 5:16
Wherefore we henceforth know no man after the flesh: even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more.

...resembles in nuce this passage from Ephesians 1:

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

...hence implying that the Christians who had known Christ "after the flesh" are the same Jews who, before the 70, had joined the rebels against Rome, sharing their messianic hopes. If we consider Ephesians a post-70 epistle for that reason, then we should consider also 2 Corinthians 5:16 a post-70 epistle.
rgprice wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 12:56 pm
5) The Gospel of Mark can be viewed as preface to the Pauline letters. By setting the story during the reign of Pilate, the writer implies that Paul's ministry follows shortly after.
If true, it doesn't say when the epistles were written, it says only when a historical "Paul" lived.


rgprice wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 12:56 pm
A> Arguments in favor of the Pauline letters having originated in the 1st century BCE:
Not even worthy of attention.
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Re: Pauline epistles pre vs. post war

Post by rgprice »

Interesting point on 2 Cor 5:16. But to me 2 Cor 5 looks like later interpolation. So you could be right about it being post-war, but it also sounds quite orthodox in addition IMO.
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Re: Pauline epistles pre vs. post war

Post by lclapshaw »

rgprice wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:57 am Interesting point on 2 Cor 5:16. But to me 2 Cor 5 looks like later interpolation. So you could be right about it being post-war, but it also sounds quite orthodox in addition IMO.
Yeah, I think I agree with you on this, the whole passage sounds contrived and not like the material around it.

Whenever Paul sounds Jewish or sounds like he's talking to other Jews, I get a little suspicious. :problem:
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1 John original

Post by mlinssen »

I have taken Berean Literal and highlighted what I feel is John - the rest is interpolation. I have added some between parentheses

1 John 1 The Word of Life
(Luke 24:36-43; John 20:19-23)
1 That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we have gazed upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life—
2 and the life was made manifest
, and we have seen and bear witness, and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was revealed to us
3 that which we have seen and have heard, we proclaim to you also, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.
4 And these things we write, so that our aa joy might be complete.
Walking in the Light (John 8:12-30)
5 And this is the message that we have heard from Him and we preach to you, that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all.
6 If we should say that we have fellowship with Him, and yet should walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But bb if we should walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we should say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we should confess our sins, He is faithful and just, that He may forgive us our sins and might cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we should say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
a 4 BYZ and TR your b 7 NA does not include But

1 John 2 Jesus Our Advocate
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you might not sin. And if anyone should sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous One.
2 And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.
3 And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we should keep His commandments.
4 The one saying, “I have known Him,” and not keeping His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever may keep His word, truly in him the love of God has been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 The one claiming to abide in Him ought also walk just as in the same way that He walked.
A New Commandment
7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment, which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard.
8 Again, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light already shines.
9 The one claiming to be in the light and hating his brother is in the darkness even until now.
10 The one loving his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling.
11 But the one hating his brother is in the darkness, and walks in the darkness;
and he knows not where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
12 I am writing to you, little children, because the sins have been forgiven you for the sake of His name.
13 I am writing to you, fathers because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one.
I have written to you, little children, because you know the Father.
14 I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who is from the beginning.
I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.
Do Not Love the World
15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone should love the world, the love of the Father is not in him,
16 because all that is in the world, the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the vaunting of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
17 And the world is passing away, and its desire; but the one doing the will of God (=Father)abides to the age.
Beware of Antichrists
18 Little children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen, whereby we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. But it is so that it might be made manifest that they are not all of us.
20 And you have the anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know.
aa 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because any lie is not of the truth.
22 Who is the liar, except the one denying that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one denying the Father and the Son.
23 Everyone denying the Son does not have the Father. The one confessing the Son has the Father also.
Continue in Him
24 You, let what you have heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you have heard from the beginning should abide in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that He promised us: eternal life.
26 I have written these things to you concerning those leading you astray.
27 And you, the anointing that you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But just as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught you, you shall abide in Him. 28 And now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears we might have boldness and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.
29 If you know that He is righteous, you know also that everyone practicing righteousness has been begotten of Him.
a 20 BYZ and TR and you know all things

1 John 3 Children of God
1 Behold what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God— and we are! Because of this, the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed.
We know that when He appears, aa we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.
3 And everyone having this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 4 Everyone committing sin also commits lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5 And you know that He appeared, so that He might take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 Anyone abiding in Him does not sin; anyone sinning has not seen Him, nor has he known Him.
7 Little children, bb let no one lead you astray; the one practicing righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
8 The one practicing sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this reason the Son of God was revealed, so that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Anyone having been born of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to continue sinning, because he has been born of God.
10 Through this, the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: anyone not practicing righteousness is not of God, and also the one not loving his brother.
Love One Another (John 13:31-35; Romans 12:9-13)
11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another,
12 not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And why did he slay him? Because his works were evil, but those of his brother, righteous.
13 And do not be surprised, brothers, if the world hates you.
14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. The one not loving abides in death.
15 Everyone hating his brother is a murderer; and you know that any murderer does not have eternal life abiding in him.
16 By this we have known love, because He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.
17 Now whoever might have the world’s goods, and might see his brother having need, and might close up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?
18 Little children, we should love not in word, nor in tongue, but in action and in truth.
19 And by this we will know that we are of the truth, and we will assure our heart before Him,
20 that if our heart should condemn us, that God is greater than our heart, and He knows all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart should not condemn us, we have confidence toward God,
22 and whatever we might ask, we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and we do the things pleasing before Him.
23 And this is His commandment, that we should believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and we should love one another, just as He gave the commandment to us.
24 And the one keeping His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us: by the Spirit whom He has given to us.
à 2 Or when it appears b 7 NA little children or little children in training

1 John 4 Testing the Spirits
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God:
Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ having come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus aa is not of God, and this is that of the antichrist, which you heard that is coming, and now is already in the world.
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because the One in you is greater than the one in the world.
5 They are of the world; because of this they speak from out of the world, and the world listens to them.
6 We are of God. The one knowing God listens to us. He who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit bb of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
Love Comes from God
7 Beloved, we should love one another, because love is from God; and everyone loving has been born from God and knows God.
8 The one not loving has not known God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God has been revealed among us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, so that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son as a propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
12 No one has seen God at any time; if we should love one another, God abides in us, and His love is having been perfected in us.
13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us: because He has given to us from out of His Spirit.
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
15 Whoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
16 And we have come to know and have come to believe the love that God has as to us.
God is love, and the one abiding in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
17 In this, love has been perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment that, just as He is, also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment;
and the one fearing has not been perfected in love.
19 We love because He first loved us.
20 If anyone should say, “I love God,” and should hate his brother, he is a liar. For the one not loving his brother, whom he has seen, is not able to love God, whom he has not seen.
21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one loving God should love his brother also.
a 3 BYZ and TR that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh b 6 Or spirit

1 John 5 Overcoming the World
1 Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone loving the One having begotten Him also loves the one having been begotten from Him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we should keep His commandments;
and His commandments are not burdensome.
4 For everyone having been born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory having overcome the world: our faith.
5 Now who is the one overcoming the world, except the one believing that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is the One having come by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and by blood. And the Spirit is the One testifying, because the Spirit is the truth.
7 For there are three bearing testimony:
aa
8 the Spirit and the water and the blood—and these are three in one.
God's Testimony about His Son
9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater. For this is the testimony of God that He has testified concerning His Son.
10 The one believing in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one not believing God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning His Son.
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 The one having the Son has life; the one not having the Son of God does not have life.
Effective Prayer
13 I have written these things to you, the ones believing in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
bb 14 And this is the confidence that we have toward Him, that if we might ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we might ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked from Him. 16 If anyone should see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and He will give him life, to those sinning not unto death. There is a sin unto death; I do not say that he should implore concerning that.
17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not unto death. Concluding Remarks
18 We know that everyone having been born of God does not continue to sin, but the One having been begotten of God protects him, cc and the evil one does not touch him.
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the evil one.
20 Now we know that the Son of God is come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

I'm not going to bother with the other two
rgprice
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Re: Pauline epistles pre vs. post war

Post by rgprice »

lclapshaw wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:16 pm
rgprice wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:57 am Interesting point on 2 Cor 5:16. But to me 2 Cor 5 looks like later interpolation. So you could be right about it being post-war, but it also sounds quite orthodox in addition IMO.
Yeah, I think I agree with you on this, the whole passage sounds contrived and not like the material around it.

Whenever Paul sounds Jewish or sounds like he's talking to other Jews, I get a little suspicious. :problem:
Hmm, I checked BeDuhn and he has 2 Cor 5:16-17 as included in Marcion's version, though unattested.

2 Cor 5.11–16 is unattested. Critics of Marcion such as Tertullian had good
reason to skip over v. 16, which lends support to Marcionite positions.
5.17 Tertullian, Marc. 5.12.6; Adam 2.16* (Schmid does not credit the evidence
of Adamantius). Both Tertullian and Adamantius read “all things
have become new,” a widely found variant for “(it) has become new”
(Tertullian usually has the latter, 4.1.6; 4.11.9). Cf. Isa 43.19.

So he states that v16 is Marcionite, which I'm not sure I understand why.

So... I dunno...
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Re: Pauline epistles pre vs. post war

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

rgprice wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 12:56 pm I know there are several threads about this, but I'd like this to be a wholistic and even-handed comparison of the arguments for and against dating the earliest layer of the Pauline epistles to one of three different time period:
A) 1st century BCE
B) 1st century CE prior to the First Jewish-Roman War
C) After the First Jewish-Roman War.
I remember a few threads where quite a good argument was made (not from me) that Paul is dependent on Philo, at least indirectly influenced. That always seemed right to me, without giving it much thought.
lclapshaw
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Re: Pauline epistles pre vs. post war

Post by lclapshaw »

rgprice wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:54 pm
lclapshaw wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:16 pm
rgprice wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:57 am Interesting point on 2 Cor 5:16. But to me 2 Cor 5 looks like later interpolation. So you could be right about it being post-war, but it also sounds quite orthodox in addition IMO.
Yeah, I think I agree with you on this, the whole passage sounds contrived and not like the material around it.

Whenever Paul sounds Jewish or sounds like he's talking to other Jews, I get a little suspicious. :problem:
Hmm, I checked BeDuhn and he has 2 Cor 5:16-17 as included in Marcion's version, though unattested.

2 Cor 5.11–16 is unattested. Critics of Marcion such as Tertullian had good
reason to skip over v. 16, which lends support to Marcionite positions.
5.17 Tertullian, Marc. 5.12.6; Adam 2.16* (Schmid does not credit the evidence
of Adamantius). Both Tertullian and Adamantius read “all things
have become new,” a widely found variant for “(it) has become new”
(Tertullian usually has the latter, 4.1.6; 4.11.9). Cf. Isa 43.19.

So he states that v16 is Marcionite, which I'm not sure I understand why.

So... I dunno...
Problem is that Marcion has the Asian letters as well so being in Marcion's collection isn't indicative of authenticity IMO.
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Re: Pauline epistles pre vs. post war

Post by mlinssen »

rgprice wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:54 pm
lclapshaw wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:16 pm
rgprice wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:57 am Interesting point on 2 Cor 5:16. But to me 2 Cor 5 looks like later interpolation. So you could be right about it being post-war, but it also sounds quite orthodox in addition IMO.
Yeah, I think I agree with you on this, the whole passage sounds contrived and not like the material around it.

Whenever Paul sounds Jewish or sounds like he's talking to other Jews, I get a little suspicious. :problem:
Hmm, I checked BeDuhn and he has 2 Cor 5:16-17 as included in Marcion's version, though unattested.

2 Cor 5.11–16 is unattested. Critics of Marcion such as Tertullian had good
reason to skip over v. 16, which lends support to Marcionite positions.
5.17 Tertullian, Marc. 5.12.6; Adam 2.16* (Schmid does not credit the evidence
of Adamantius). Both Tertullian and Adamantius read “all things
have become new,” a widely found variant for “(it) has become new”
(Tertullian usually has the latter, 4.1.6; 4.11.9). Cf. Isa 43.19.

So he states that v16 is Marcionite, which I'm not sure I understand why.

So... I dunno...
You could ask him, he is in https://www.academia.edu/s/faa7f58532

16 Therefore from now, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have regarded Christ according to flesh, yet now we regard Him thus no longer.

That's pretty docetic, isn't it?
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Re: Pauline epistles pre vs. post war

Post by MrMacSon »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:58 am
rgprice wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 12:56 pm 4) The general lack of overt discussion about the war or the destruction of the temple. Some passage that imply strongly the war has not yet occurred, e.g. 1 Cor 10.
This is the true real only strong argument for a Paul pre-70.

I note that this passage:

2 Corinthians 5:16
Wherefore we henceforth know no man after the flesh: even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more.

...resembles in nuce this passage from Ephesians 1:

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

...hence implying that the Christians who had known Christ "after the flesh" are the same Jews who, before the 70, had joined the rebels against Rome, sharing their messianic hopes. If we consider Ephesians a post-70 epistle for that reason, then we should consider also 2 Corinthians 5:16 a post-70 [verse].

rgprice wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:57 am Interesting point on 2 Cor 5:16. But to me 2 Cor 5 looks like later interpolation. So you could be right about it being post-war, but it also sounds quite orthodox in addition IMO.
rgprice wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:54 pm
Hmm, I checked BeDuhn and he has 2 Cor 5:16-17 as included in Marcion's version, though [2 Cor 5:11-16 are] unattested.


2 Cor 5.11–16 is unattested. Critics of Marcion such as Tertullian had good reason to skip over v. 16, which lends support to Marcionite positions.

5.17 Tertullian, Marc. 5.12.6; Adam 2.16* (Schmid does not credit the evidence of Adamantius). Both Tertullian and Adamantius read “all things have become new,” a widely found variant for “(it) has become new” (Tertullian usually has the latter, 4.1.6; 4.11.9). cf. Isa 43.19.


So he states that v.16 is Marcionite, which I'm not sure I understand why.
So ... I dunno ...

2 Cor 5:16b, "we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more," is something Tertullian would have wanted to skip over ??
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Re: Pauline epistles pre vs. post war

Post by maryhelena »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:56 pm
rgprice wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 12:56 pm I know there are several threads about this, but I'd like this to be a wholistic and even-handed comparison of the arguments for and against dating the earliest layer of the Pauline epistles to one of three different time period:
A) 1st century BCE
B) 1st century CE prior to the First Jewish-Roman War
C) After the First Jewish-Roman War.
I remember a few threads where quite a good argument was made (not from me) that Paul is dependent on Philo, at least indirectly influenced. That always seemed right to me, without giving it much thought.
The Pauline writer may well have been dependent on Philo. However, the issue, in relationship to Paul being in Damascus while it was under the control of an Aretas - is an issue related to the historicity of the NT figure of Paul.

1] if NT Paul was a historical figure then arguments are made that he, as it were, follows on from the gospel Jesus figure. Thus placing him soon after the consensus dating of the death of that Jesus figure. Dating the crucifixion of the gospel figure can be anywhere during the time of Tiberius and Pilate. (early re the TF - late re Kokkinos). 37 c.e. is thus the earliest dating possible for NT Paul. 3 years prior to the death of Aretas IV in 40 c.e.

2)Lucius Vitellius, re list in Wikipedia, was consul/governor, of Syria from 34 - 39 c.e.
Antiquities book 18. So Vitellius prepared to make war with Aretas, having with him two legions of armed men. He also took with him all those of light armature, and of the horsemen which belonged to them, and were drawn out of those Kingdoms which were under the Romans; and made haste for Petra:

3) The death of Tiberius in 37 c.e. prevented Vitellius from proceeding to Petra.

4) Aretas IV in Petra - says, re Josephus:
Antiquities book 18. It was also reported, that when Aretas heard of the coming of Vitellius to fight him, he said, upon his consulting the diviners, that it was impossible that this army of Vitellius’s could enter Petra. For that one of the rulers would die; either he that gave orders for the war; or he that was marching at the other’s desire, in order to be subservient to his will; or else he against whom this army was prepared.

5) Publius Petronius 39 - 41/2 c.e followed Vitellius. He was under orders, by Gaius/Caligula to put a statue in the Jerusalem temple - to which the Jews objected. Demonstrations followed. Petronius went as far as having two legions on the border of Galilee. Yep, Gaius/Caligula was probably quite mad - but if he was prepared to send a Roman army to Jerusalem over a statue - it is surely fair to say that he would have sent a Roman army to Petra if Areta IV was making any moves towards capturing Damascus.

6) Aretas IV would himself have been mad to have taken on the Roman army. It might have been family pride going after Herod/Antipas re the divorce of his daughter - but Damascus ? Against the might of Rome ?

7) There is no historical evidence to suggest such madness from Aretas IV.

8) A historical mistake by the Pauline writer is possibly the more honorable approach to the Pauline 'basket case' and Aretas. Running to arguments that seek to override history is tiresome.

9) Both Aretas III and Lysanias of Abilene are two historical figures placed within the NT story. That these two historical figures don't fit into the consensus interpretation of the NT story is obvious.

10) Allowing interpretation of the NT story to override history is a mistake - that is of course, if one is interested in searching for early christian origins. History is primary. If that history casts doubts on consensus interpretations of the NT story and timeline - well then, that opens up an opportunity for a rethink of the NT interpretations.....
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