The evident primacy of the Gospel of John as the first of them all

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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mlinssen
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Re: The evident primacy of the Gospel of John as the first of them all

Post by mlinssen »

Paul the Uncertain wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:45 am
mlinssen wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:54 am That's interesting. The issue that I have with Pauline priority - period - is that I find it very hard to imagine that a letter from HQ is sent to various branch offices without any story every having been written about anything.
You cannot have a movement of anything, larger than a few hundred people, where there is nothing written down - that simply is impossible, nothing works that way It is insane
Why ought we to think that the Christian movement had more than a few hundred "members" by say 50 CE? (After which, on the consensus timeline, there is something written down - Paul's letters.)

Plus, of course, the Jewish scriptures were long since written down, and were still being consulted while Paul was preaching according to his letters.

Although I'm unsure of its relevance, Paul's letter to the Romans isn't from HQ to a branch office. Nor according to Galatians would Paul's office be HQ for the Judean assemblies, and his claim to any enduring leadership in Antioch is unclear - maybe a condominium with the Jerusalem pillars, maybe nothing at all. What, if anything, was going on in Damascus is similarly unclear. And while Acts is dubious history, it surely is pro-Paul, and he plays no role at all in the conversion of Simon and his followers (an already somewhat organized group?) in Samaria.
I'm curious really - apart from you answering the question from the alleged consensus, which is only established by dogma and wholly uncorroborated by the Patristics - about how you envision someone composing the dozen letters, a volume amounting to roughly 125% of the gospels combined, to a movement with a mere [ETA: changed free to few] hundred members?
How many then are there in the congregations that are being written to? One or two persons each?!
Last edited by mlinssen on Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The evident primacy of the Gospel of John as the first of them all

Post by rgprice »

The age of the manuscripts is meaningless. Mark is certainly not simple or the last. It actually the most complex of all of them in terms of how it is written.

John is more unique so it got attention. The writing style of John is more appealing and evocative. John is more anti-Semitic, and thus was also attractive as Roman Christians were generally very harsh regarding the Jews as a people.

Yes, John got a lot of attention, but its clearly not the first Gospel or earlier than Mark.
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Re: The evident primacy of the Gospel of John as the first of them all

Post by mlinssen »

rgprice wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 5:47 am The age of the manuscripts is meaningless. Mark is certainly not simple or the last. It actually the most complex of all of them in terms of how it is written.

John is more unique so it got attention. The writing style of John is more appealing and evocative. John is more anti-Semitic, and thus was also attractive as Roman Christians were generally very harsh regarding the Jews as a people.

Yes, John got a lot of attention, but its clearly not the first Gospel or earlier than Mark.
Agreed to age of MSS, that only establishes print date - within a margin of 50-100 below or above.
Agreed that Mark is an astonishing composition, both in the chiastic way that it is constructed, as well as how it turned the tide. But the Greek itself, the semantics, the grammar? Rudimentary at best

John certainly is appealing, it is very close to poetry - in between the lines. John certainly is more anti-Judean (check viewtopic.php?p=134912#p134912) but I am unsure to which extent it is anti-Judaic - and I would certainly avoid the label anti-Semitic

I would appreciate the motivation to your last paragraph - given the "clearly" you must be able to spit out a top three within minutes

Full disclosure: I think that John ended at chapter 18; observe viewtopic.php?p=127714#p127714
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Re: The evident primacy of the Gospel of John as the first of them all

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

mlinssen wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 5:15 am I'm curious really - apart from you answering the question from the alleged consensus, which is only established by dogma and wholly uncorroborated by the Patristics
... and which is the hypothesis that you wish to overturn, and so a hypothesis whose holdings should be examined.
- about how you envision someone composing the dozen letters, a volume amounting to roughly 125% of the gospels combined, to a movement with a mere free hundred members?
Under the hypothesis which we are examining, there were no gospels in 50 CE, and Paul has just begun, or will shortly begin, to write the first of seven letters (according to the usual count).
How many then are there in the congregations that are being written to? One or two persons each?!
My question was, and I quote you quoting me:

Why ought we to think that the Christian movement had more than a few hundred "members" by say 50 CE?

Please consider answering the question asked, and after you have done so, feel free to ask me a question in turn. Thank you.
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Re: The evident primacy of the Gospel of John as the first of them all

Post by mlinssen »

Paul the Uncertain wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:14 am
mlinssen wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 5:15 am I'm curious really - apart from you answering the question from the alleged consensus, which is only established by dogma and wholly uncorroborated by the Patristics
... and which is the hypothesis that you wish to overturn, and so a hypothesis whose holdings should be examined.
- about how you envision someone composing the dozen letters, a volume amounting to roughly 125% of the gospels combined, to a movement with a mere few [ETA: FIXED] hundred members?
Under the hypothesis which we are examining, there were no gospels in 50 CE, and Paul has just begun, or will shortly begin, to write the first of seven letters (according to the usual count).
How many then are there in the congregations that are being written to? One or two persons each?!
My question was, and I quote you quoting me:

Why ought we to think that the Christian movement had more than a few hundred "members" by say 50 CE?

Please consider answering the question asked, and after you have done so, feel free to ask me a question in turn. Thank you.
I am merely going along with your answer, implicitly accepting it for argument's sake Paul

But let me make that explicit then: well let's indeed suppose that the Christian movement had NOT more than a few hundred "members" by say 50 CE, How many then are there in the congregations that are being written to? One or two persons each?!
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Re: The evident primacy of the Gospel of John as the first of them all

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:06 am I thought it was interesting in what it said about the order of the gospels ie. John, Luke, Matthew, then Mark
Luke's second place is tricked because Acts was taken into account.

I know of three criteria for such investigations concerning the first centuries

How many MSS?
How many quotes in the Church Fathers?
How many readings in church services? (as far as reconstructable from the sources)

The result is that Matthew and John are clearly and vastly superior to the other two. Then Luke follows at a great distance and Mark is nearly absent. Larry Hurtado once wrote a nice essay about how Mark still managed to survive.

That supposedly John HAD to be accepted is nonsense. Beside Matthew, John was also the most popular Gospel among the Catholics.
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The evident primacy of the Gospel of John as the first of them all: Adv. Hae. Book 3, Chapter 11, 8

Post by mlinssen »


8. It is not possible that the Gospels can be either more or fewer in number than they are. For, since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds,(4) while the Church is scattered throughout all the world, and the "pillar and ground"(5) of the Church is the Gospel and the spirit of life; it is fitting that she should have four pillars, breathing out immortality on every side, and vivifying men afresh. From which fact, it is evident that the Word, the Artificer of all, He that sitteth upon the cherubim, and contains all things, He who was manifested to men, has given us the Gospel under four aspects, but bound together by one Spirit. As also David says, when entreating His manifestation, "Thou that sittest between the cherubim, shine forth."(6) For the cherubim, too, were four-faced, and their faces were images of the dispensation of the Son of God. For, [as the Scripture] says, "The first living creature was like a lion,"(7) symbolizing His effectual working, His leadership, and royal power; the second [living creature] was like a calf, signifying [His] sacrificial and sacerdotal order; but "the third had, as it were, the face as of a man,"--an evident description of His advent as a human being; "the fourth was like a flying eagle," pointing out the gift of the Spirit hovering with His wings over the Church. And therefore the Gospels are in accord with these things, among which Christ Jesus is seated. For that according to John relates His original, effectual, and glorious generation from the Father, thus declaring, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."(8) Also, "all things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made." For this reason, too, is that Gospel full of all confidence, for such is His person.(9) But that according to Luke, taking up [His] priestly character, commenced with Zacharias the priest offering sacrifice to God. For now was made ready the fatted calf, about to be immolated for(10) the finding again of the younger son. Matthew, again, relates His generation as a man, saying, "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham;"(11) and also, "The birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise." This, then, is the Gospel of His humanity;(12) for which reason it is, too, that [the character of] a humble and meek man is kept up through the whole Gospel. Mark, on the other hand, commences with [a reference to] the prophetical spirit coming down from on high to men, saying, "The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as it is written in Esaias the prophet,"--pointing to the winged aspect of the Gospel; and on this account he made a compendious and cursory narrative, for such is the prophetical character. And the Word of God Himself used to converse with the ante-Mosaic patriarchs, in accordance with His divinity and glory; but for those under the law he instituted a sacerdotal and liturgical service.(1) Afterwards, being made man for us, He sent the gift of the celestial Spirit over all the earth, protecting us with His wings. Such, then, as was the course followed by the Son of God, so was also the form of the living creatures; and such as was the form of the living creatures, so was also the character of the Gospel.(2) For the living creatures are quadriform, and the Gospel is quadriform, as is also the course followed by the Lord. For this reason were four principal (kaqolikai) covenants given to the human race:(3) one, prior to the deluge, under Adam; the second, that after the deluge, under Noah; the third, the giving of the law, under Moses; the fourth, that which renovates man, and sums up all things in itself by means of the Gospel, raising and bearing men upon heavenly kingdom.its wings into the

http://gnosis.org/library/advh3.htm
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Re: The evident primacy of the Gospel of John as the first of them all

Post by mlinssen »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:26 am
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:06 am I thought it was interesting in what it said about the order of the gospels ie. John, Luke, Matthew, then Mark
Luke's second place is tricked because Acts was taken into account.
I'd be delighted if you could point that out in viewtopic.php?p=148768#p148768
I know of three criteria for such investigations concerning the first centuries

How many MSS?
How many quotes in the Church Fathers?
How many readings in church services? (as far as reconstructable from the source)

The result is that Matthew and John are clearly and vastly superior to the other two
You mean John and Matthew: 19 John and 12 Matthew until 300 CE. And even until 800 CE John trumps Matthew by 15%

viewtopic.php?p=148694#p148694
Then Luke follows at a great distance and Mark is nearly absent. Larry Hurtado once wrote a nice essay about how Mark still managed to survive.
Hurtado indeed very much liked to write nice essays - and to see staurograms where there were none
That supposedly John HAD to be accepted is nonsense. Beside Matthew, John was also the most popular Gospel among the Catholics.
That is not only a baseless assumption, but just a dumb statement
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Re: The evident primacy of the Gospel of John as the first of them all

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

mlinssen wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:02 am
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:26 am That supposedly John HAD to be accepted is nonsense. Beside Matthew, John was also the most popular Gospel among the Catholics.
That is not only a baseless assumption, but just a dumb statement
I mentioned the basis
How many MSS?
How many quotes in the Church Fathers?
How many readings in church services? (as far as reconstructable from the source)
The results just disagree with your private pet theories.

Matthew and John were regarded as apostles, historical companions of Jesus. Hence their superiority over Luke and Mark. The author of GThomas knew this and jumped on the bandwagon too :whistling:
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Re: The evident primacy of the Gospel of John as the first of them all

Post by mlinssen »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:12 am
mlinssen wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:02 am
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:26 am That supposedly John HAD to be accepted is nonsense. Beside Matthew, John was also the most popular Gospel among the Catholics.
That is not only a baseless assumption, but just a dumb statement
I mentioned the basis
How many MSS?
How many quotes in the Church Fathers?
How many readings in church services? (as far as reconstructable from the source)
The results just disagree with your private pet theories.

Matthew and John were regarded as apostles, historical companions of Jesus. Hence their superiority over Luke and Mark. The author of GThomas knew this and jumped on the bandwagon too :whistling:
I am genuinely surprised, Kunigunde. You often present fairly good posts, but your current display of dumbfounding gullibility amazes me

The results are right in front of your eyes and explicitly referenced by me in the very post that you manage to so selectively cite here.
But, like Thomas said, ...
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