GMark's Stylish Balanced & Contrasting Irony as Evidence of Markan Priority

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MrMacSon
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Re: GMark's Stylish Balanced & Contrasting Irony as Evidence of Markan Priority

Post by MrMacSon »

schillingklaus wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:41 pm Yeah, and Giuseppe has listed several example already why Pilate is such an euhemerized figure.
  • I’ve missed that. What is Pilate a euhemerization of?
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Re: GMark's Stylish Balanced & Contrasting Irony as Evidence of Markan Priority

Post by Giuseppe »

rgprice wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:46 am what you point out here is just one of really hundreds of examples of these types of aspects of Mark.
  • Klinghardt makes his case for Marcionite priority even if he concedes clearly the extreme complexity from a literary POV of Mark.
  • Said in all frankness, what I don't like in Mark is the presence of John the Baptist in the incipit. If I remove the Baptist from the incipit of Mark, then can I satisfy myself by having a such proto-Mark as Earliest Gospel? The problem is that, by removing the Baptist from the incipit, then I should remove accordingly the final implicit mention of the Baptist in 15:35-36:

    When some of those standing near heard this, they said, “Listen, he’s calling Elijah.”
    Someone ran, filled a sponge with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to take him down,” he said.

    But the latter removal is very artificial.

    My point is that the Baptist is so intrinsically part of the Markan narrative, that a presumed proto-Mark extrapolated out of Mark (and without the Baptism of Jesus by John) is very an abstract contrived hypothesis.

    Hence I can't postulate a proto-Mark preceding Marcion and later expanded by the catholics with the anti-marcionite baptism of Jesus by John. A such baptism (with the implicit anti-marcionite point in it) was in Mark from the beginning.
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Re: GMark's Stylish Balanced & Contrasting Irony as Evidence of Markan Priority

Post by schillingklaus »

John in the incipit is an absolutely indeispensable part of the gospe narrative from the outset. It is the justification of the baptismal sacramant by making it look like a fulfuilment of Scripture.
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Re: GMark's Stylish Balanced & Contrasting Irony as Evidence of Markan Priority

Post by rgprice »

schillingklaus wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:16 pm The second "god" is much earlier than the first gospel, as the gospels are late Euhemerizations and Judaizations of pre-Christian Gnostic concepts. YHWH does not count as a god there but as an archon.

Neither Mk nor Marcion is early, as they depend on pre-synoptic gospel drafts.
It may be that the second God concept existed before the first Gospel, but that doesn't mean the first Gospel was about a second God. It would be very interesting if it were, but it just isn't. And also, if the first Gospel were about a second God, wouldn't it be quite a bit more obvious?

And how would Mark have been able to take a story about a second God and build all of these intricate scriptural references into it? I can see how someone could do it the way that Matthew did, which is quite crude and obtuse, but not the way Mark did.

As JW says, Mark has a style that is far beyond equal among all of the Gospels. It's inconceivable that Mark could be merely the modification of an existing story. It would have been impossible to take an existing story, leave it virtually unchanged, while at the same time adding in the almost infinite number of "easter eggs" to it.

I mean literally, the Gospel of Mark is one of the most complex pieces of literature ever produced. Its insane. The chiasmus, the hidden literary references, the irony, the numerological scene structure. It just going on and on with all of these little amazing details the author has worked in. Its like each time you peal back a layer of the onion you find another amazing layer. A writer can't possible do that by just re-working someone else's material. They had to have total creative freedom to construct the story they wanted. They weren't bound by someone else's narrative.
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Re: GMark's Stylish Balanced & Contrasting Irony as Evidence of Markan Priority

Post by mlinssen »

MrMacSon wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 2:05 pm
mlinssen wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 1:44 pm But indulge me please: let's suppose there was a previous story that Mark redacted into what we have - then what did he change, add, and so on?
Mark is likely unique and original.
The previous 'story' he most likely used was Paul's ie. Pauline epistles (& more of the LXX and accounts of the Roman-Jewish war/s)
Even if he did, there can't be more than a dozen Pauline lines in all of Mark.
Impossible to label that as a source - especially given the absence of circumcision in Mark
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Searching For Clues At The Scene Of The Crime

Post by JoeWallack »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXWvKDSwvls

JW:
As always, I really should be charging you gals for this. Regarding evidence for priority, subsequent editors have two main reasons for verse:
  • 1) Their themes.
    2) It's in their source.
Subsequent editors will gradually have more contradictions within their texts.


Description GMark GMatthew GLuke GJohn
Baptism 1
4 John came, who baptized in the wilderness and [1]preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the country of Judaea, and all they of Jerusalem; [1]And they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
6 And John was clothed with camel`s hair, and [had] a leathern girdle about his loins, and did eat locusts and wild honey.
7 And he preached, saying, There cometh after me he that is mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8 I baptized you in water; But he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit.
9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in the Jordan.
10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens rent asunder, and the Spirit as a dove descending upon him:
11 And a voice came out of the heavens, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased.
3
1 And in those days cometh John the Baptist, [1]preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, saying,
2 Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of through Isaiah the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ye ready the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight.
4 Now John himself had his raiment of camel`s hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his food was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then went out unto him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about the Jordan;
6 and [1]they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:
9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and [in] fire:
12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John would have hindered him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 But Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer [it] now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffereth him.
16 And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him;
17 and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
3
1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene,
2 in the highpriesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
3 And he came into all the region round about the Jordan, [1]preaching the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins;
4 as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ye ready the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled, And every mountain and hill shall be brought low; And the crooked shall become straight, And the rough ways smooth;
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
7 He said therefore to the multitudes that went out to be baptized of him, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 [1]Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9 And even now the axe also lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
10 And the multitudes asked him, saying, What then must we do?
11 And he answered and said unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath food, let him do likewise.
12 And there came also publicans to be baptized, and they said unto him, Teacher, what must we do?
13 And he said unto them, Extort no more than that which is appointed you.
14 And soldiers also asked him, saying, And we, what must we do? And he said unto them, Extort from no man by violence, neither accuse [any one] wrongfully; and be content with your wages.
15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men reasoned in their hearts concerning John, whether haply he were the Christ;
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but there cometh he that is mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and [in] fire:
17 whose fan is in his hand, thoroughly to cleanse his threshing-floor, and to gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.
18 With many other exhortations therefore preached he good tidings unto the people;
19 but Herod the tetrarch, being reproved by him for Herodias his brother`s wife, and for all the evil things which Herod had done,
20 added this also to them all, that he shut up John in prison.
21 Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that, Jesus also having been baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
22 and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
1
15 John beareth witness of him, and crieth, saying, This was he of whom I said, He that cometh after me is become before me: for he was before me.
16 For of his fulness we all received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].
19 And this is the witness of John, when the Jews sent unto him from Jerusalem priests and Levites to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; and he confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elijah? And he saith, I am not. Art thou the prophet? And he answered, No.
22 They said therefore unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
23 [1]He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said Isaiah the prophet.
24 And they had been sent from the Pharisees.
25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why then baptizest thou, if thou art not the Christ, neither Elijah, neither the prophet?
26 John answered them, saying, I baptize in water: in the midst of you standeth one whom ye know not,
27 [even] he that cometh after me, the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to unloose.
28 These things were done in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
29 On the morrow he seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man who is become before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not; but that he should be made manifest to Israel, for this cause came I baptizing in water.
32 And John bare witness, saying, I have beheld the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven; and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize in water, he said unto me, Upon whomsoever thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and abiding upon him, the same is he that baptizeth in the Holy Spirit.
34 And I have seen, and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.
Commentary [1] Note the consistency. The purpose of the Baptism is to repent for the remission of sins. All the people confess their sins. Very simple, very easy, very nicea. The problem for the subsequent orthodox Christianity of course is that the implication is that Jesus also confessed his sins. An extremely difficult reading. Now John is not preaching a baptism of repentance and John adds that good deeds are more important than baptism. And this Jesus only gets baptized to complete the papalwork (so to speak). Gentilemen, start your contradiction engines. This John is still preaching a baptism of repentance for atonement even though he likewise says good deeds are more important. Why the conflict? Because the first part is in his source. Now no one is described as confessing their sins and the consistency of GMark is completely undone here. This John's purpose has completely changed. The purpose of John and his baptizing is to witness Jesus. Note that this is a 180 from GMark. The ironic implication in GMark is that John did not recognize Jesus as anything special. John's John goes all the other way. One of many examples of how GJohn is often reaction to GMark.


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schillingklaus
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Re: GMark's Stylish Balanced & Contrasting Irony as Evidence of Markan Priority

Post by schillingklaus »

Apologists like Wallack trye to trick mankind into believing that the remission of sins is the purpose of baptism. Only critical researchers like Jean Magne know that this view of baptism is a late interpolation of the degenerate sort.
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Giuseppe
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Re: GMark's Stylish Balanced & Contrasting Irony as Evidence of Markan Priority

Post by Giuseppe »

I am a bit disgusted by this quote:
The problem for the subsequent orthodox Christianity of course is that the implication is that Jesus also confessed his sins. An extremely difficult reading.
If even an atheist Jesus Agnostic as Joe Wallack sees embarrassment in this "difficult reading", then the only way to overcome a similar embarrassment is to see it as the high price that Mark had to pay to humanize Jesus, against Marcion.
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Re: GMark's Stylish Balanced & Contrasting Irony as Evidence of Markan Priority

Post by schillingklaus »

There is absolutely no embarrassment involved.

Mark had not humanized Jesus, as a humanized Jesus was already central for the lost pre-synoptic gosples. The humanization was necessary for identifying illogically The Father with YHWH, which required the eucharist to be instituted by a human agent predicted by the Law and the Prophets.
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MrMacSon
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Re: GMark's Stylish Balanced & Contrasting Irony as Evidence of Markan Priority

Post by MrMacSon »

Giuseppe wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:17 am If even an atheist Jesus Agnostic...sees embarrassment in this "difficult reading", then the only way to overcome a similar embarrassment is to see it as the high price that Mark had to pay to humanize Jesus, against Marcion.
  • That a non-sequitur ie. the second premise doesn't logically follow the first

schillingklaus wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:19 pm There is absolutely no embarrassment involved.
Mark had not humanized Jesus, as
a humanized Jesus was already central for the lost pre-synoptic gospels.
  • That's unproven

schillingklaus wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:19 pm The humanization was necessary for identifying illogically The Father with YHWH, which required the eucharist to be instituted by a human agent predicted by the Law and the Prophets.
  • That's goble-de-gook
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