The blind of Bethsaida in Mark as evidence of Markan posteriority vis-a-vis Marcion

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Giuseppe
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The blind of Bethsaida in Mark as evidence of Markan posteriority vis-a-vis Marcion

Post by Giuseppe »

I find curious that the Markan priority is based necessarily on the fact that late evangelists were so idiots that they "degraded" a previous perfect narrative without knowing it, while the Marcionite priority is based just on the impossibility of a such idiotic corruption by late evangelists:

rgprice wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:46 am It is far more likely that the original story contained all of these patterns and references and that as others copied the story and made derivative works they degraded the patterns and references that were part of the original. You can't take a story written without all of this symbolism and hidden meaning in mind and then introduce all of that to it. It has to be part of the foundation.

“A theory which would make an author [=Marcion] capable of such a proceeding [=that *Ev had meticulously removed the Mark's compositional framework, and that he literarily marred a coherently structured text] would only be tenable if, on other grounds, we had reason to believe he was a crank”



For determining the editorial direction between *Ev and Mark, referencing two phenomena will suffice.

The first is the compositional agreements between both accounts of the healing of a blind man (Makr 8,22-26 and 10,46-52). They constitute a framework around the large passage regarding Jesus' 'path' with the disciples (Mark 8,27-10,45) and thereby provide essential insights into the overall understanding. At the end of the 'path' (in Jericho as the last station before Jerusalem), the healed Bartimaeus follows on Jesus's 'path', even though it then leads only on a comparably short distance to Jerusalem. Both the healing from blindness of Bartimaeus and his discipleship (10,52: ἠκολούθει αὐτῷ ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ) are understood symbolically and associatively. Bartimaeus recognizes the necessity for the preparedness to suffer (narratively displayed for the reader in previous passages), and he follows on Jesus' path to his Passion. The intentionality of these symbolic connotations results from the narrative aboutment of this account: the healing of the blind man in Bethsaida (Mark 8,22-26). His blindness is symbolically connoted and associated with his (insufficient) understanding, as shown through the close correspondence with the curing of a deaf man (Mark 7,31-36) as well as through the 'deafness' and 'blindness' designating the disciples' incomprenhension.

Both of these healings of the blind confirm the carefully designed literary conception of the entire unit. While Jesus sends the healed man of Bethsaida back home again (Mark 8,26: καὶ ἀπέστειλεν αὐτὸν εἰς οἶκον αὐτοῦ), the healed Bartimaeus follows on Jesus' path to his Passion (Mark 10,52). For readers, the removal of Bartimaeus's blindness embodies his insight on a level that goes beyond the eyesight of the healed man in Mark 8,26.

The difference between both healings from 'blindness' is being narratively displayed. The first healing of the blind man in Bethsaida progresses gradually. Since the visual capacity after Jesus first lays on his hands improves only marginally (8,24), Jesus has to lay on his hands again (8,25 πάλιν). Bartimaeus, however, can see 'immediately' (10,52 καὶ εὐθὺς ἀνέβλεψεν). Perhaps the healing of the blind man at Bethsaida can be understood as coming from the outside, by laying on hands as magic practice, whereas the restoration of eyesight with Bartimaeus is facilitated by his faith (10,52: ἡ πίστις σου σέσωκέν σε). This links him not only to the 'woman suffering from hemorrhages' (Mark 5,34) but above al to the Syrophoenician woman whose theological insight leads to the healing of her daughter. The real reason for the sudden and complete recovery from blindnees of Bartimaeus - enabling him now to follow Jesus - lies neverthless in comprehending everything Mark had elucidated through the narrative and spoken material located between the two accounts of healing: whoever surrenders and is prepared to also surrender his life will attain life.

These very obvious and purposeful compositional signals within the framework of the Markan travel narrative gain significance in tradition history by their comparison with *Ev. The first Markan healing of the blind man (Mark 8,22-26) has no agreement either in Matthew and Luke or in *Ev. The second healing of the blind man (Mark 10,46-52), however, has a counterpart in *18,35-43. For this Marcionite version of the healing of the blind man, it can be made probable that the notice of his discipleship (verse 43: καὶ ἠκολούθει αὐτῷ δοξάζειν τὸν Θεόν) was originally missing, and that it was inserted by the Lukan redaction. Apart from its wording (δοξάζων τὸν Θεόν) being a Lukan reference, this reaction clashes with that of the crowd (Luke 18,43c), and such a two-fold reaction is exceptionally unusual. Regarding the question about the editorial direction, the compositional characteristics distinctly indicate *Ev-priority. The reverse case would need to assume that *Ev had meticulously removed the compositional framework, and that he literarily marred a coherently structured text. The argument for *Ev-priority, therefore, follows Burnett Streeter's refutation of Lukan dependency on Matthew in view of the Sermon on the Mount: “A theory which would make an author capable of such a proceeding would only be tenable if, on other grounds, we had reason to believe he was a crank”.

(Matthias Klinghardt, The Oldest Gospel and the Formation of the Canonical Gospels, p. 204-205)
schillingklaus
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Re: The blind of Bethsaida in Mark as evidence of Markan posteriority vis-a-vis Marcion

Post by schillingklaus »

The blindness of the gospel figures derives from ther blindness of Adam and Eve whose eyes were opened upon consuming the fruit from the tree in the paradise. Jesus is just an euhemerization and Judaization of the paradisic serpent who taught A&E the original eucharist.
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Re: The blind of Bethsaida in Mark as evidence of Markan posteriority vis-a-vis Marcion

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:19 am
Regarding the question about the editorial direction, the compositional characteristics distinctly indicate *Ev-priority. The reverse case would need to assume that *Ev had meticulously removed the compositional framework, and that he literarily marred a coherently structured text. The argument for *Ev-priority, therefore, follows Burnett Streeter's refutation of Lukan dependency on Matthew in view of the Sermon on the Mount: “A theory which would make an author capable of such a proceeding would only be tenable if, on other grounds, we had reason to believe he was a crank”.

(Matthias Klinghardt, The Oldest Gospel and the Formation of the Canonical Gospels, p. 204-205)
Klinghardt didn't understand Streeter.

Streeter had no problem with the claim that Luke divided Matthews' composition into separate parts. He also had no problem with the claim that Luke moved the separate parts elsewhere.

But Streeter argued (I have no idea if that's true) that the separate parts still appear - although separate from each other - in the same order as they did in Matthew. Streeter said it's crazy for someone to destroy a unit and then rebuild it somewhere else with the same order. It would be easier to imagine that Q exists (or Matthew just put it all together).
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Re: The blind of Bethsaida in Mark as evidence of Markan posteriority vis-a-vis Marcion

Post by MrMacSon »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:19 am

For determining the editorial direction between *Ev and Mark, referencing two phenomena will suffice.

The first is the compositional agreements between both accounts of the healing of a blind man (Mark 8,22-26 and 10,46-52). They constitute a framework around the large passage regarding Jesus' 'path' with the disciples (Mark 8,27-10,45) and thereby provide essential insights into the overall understanding ... Both the healing from blindness of Bartimaeus and his discipleship (10,52...) are understood symbolically and associatively. Bartimaeus recognizes the necessity for the preparedness to suffer (narratively displayed for the reader in previous passages), and he follows on Jesus' path to his Passion ... connotations result from the narrative [abutment(?)] of this account ... His blindness is symbolically connoted and associated with his (insufficient) understanding, as shown through the close correspondence with the curing of a deaf man (Mark 7,31-36) as well as through the 'deafness' and 'blindness' designating the disciples' incomprenhension.

Both of these healings of the blind confirm the carefully designed literary conception of the entire unit. While Jesus sends the healed man of Bethsaida back home again (Mark 8,26...), the healed Bartimaeus follows on Jesus' path to his Passion (Mark 10,52) ... his insight on a level that goes beyond the eyesight of the healed man in Mark 8,26.

< . . deleted paragraph . . >

These very obvious and purposeful compositional signals within the framework of the Markan travel narrative gain significance in tradition history by their comparison with *Ev. The first Markan healing of the blind man (Mark 8,22-26) has no agreement either in Matthew and Luke or in *Ev. The second healing of the blind man (Mark 10,46-52), however, has a counterpart in *18,35-43. For this Marcionite version of the healing of the blind man, it can be made probable that the notice of his discipleship (verse 43: καὶ ἠκολούθει αὐτῷ δοξάζειν τὸν Θεόν) was originally missing and that it was inserted by the Lukan redaction. Apart from its wording (δοξάζων τὸν Θεόν) being a Lukan reference, this reaction clashes with that of the crowd (Luke 18,43c), and such a two-fold reaction is exceptionally unusual.

Regarding the question about the editorial direction, the compositional characteristics distinctly indicate *Ev-priority. The reverse case would need to assume that *Ev had meticulously removed the compositional framework, and that he literarily marred a coherently structured text ...


(Matthias Klinghardt, The Oldest Gospel and the Formation of the Canonical Gospels, p. 204-205)
So, what Klinghardt is really saying is that -

."The second healing of the blind man (Mark 10,46-52)...has a counterpart in *18,35-4[2]."

- ie. not *18,35-43, given that it "can be made"

."probable that the notice of [the blind man's] discipleship (verse 43...) was originally missing and...was inserted by the Lukan redaction."

I'm not convinced that that excerpt adequately explains *Ev priority ...

eta
Other than


."the compositional characteristics distinctly indicate *Ev-priority. The reverse case would need to assume that *Ev had meticulously removed the compositional framework, and that he literarily marred a coherently structured text"


Ulan
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Re: The blind of Bethsaida in Mark as evidence of Markan posteriority vis-a-vis Marcion

Post by Ulan »

I'd like to point to a discussion of the peculiarities of the Bethsaida section: viewtopic.php?t=2554

It seems to be out of place in gMark for other reasons. This would have implications for the question in this thread, as in not being relevant.
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Giuseppe
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Re: The blind of Bethsaida in Mark as evidence of Markan posteriority vis-a-vis Marcion

Post by Giuseppe »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 1:18 pmStreeter said it's crazy for someone to destroy a unit and then rebuild it somewhere else with the same order.
I have noted that the Streeter's quote has become an authentic meme in the net. Only google:

“A theory which would make an author capable of such a proceeding would only be tenable if, on other grounds, we had reason to believe he was a crank”

Probably the reason is that it resumes the general Argument from the Improbability that someone could "degrade" a previous "perfect" story without being a complete idiot.

Hence the Markan prioritists have to assume that all the other evangelists, included Marcion, were cranks, i.e. that none of them understood the literary genius of Mark, not even the eager Paulinists among them.

Is this really possible? :confusedsmiley:
schillingklaus
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Re: The blind of Bethsaida in Mark as evidence of Markan posteriority vis-a-vis Marcion

Post by schillingklaus »

The cranky ones are the Markan prioritists, as they believe in the originality of chiasms.
rgprice
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Re: The blind of Bethsaida in Mark as evidence of Markan posteriority vis-a-vis Marcion

Post by rgprice »

You don't have to be a crank to degrade the Markan story at all, that's total nonsense. You just have to not fully recognize all of the symbolism, which literally millions of people over the past 2,000 have failed to recognize. You don't need to be a crank to degrade the Temple Cleansing scene, you just need not to see that the scene uses Hosea 9 as a scriptural refence and then remove the cursing of the fig tree because it makes Jesus seem like a jerk. So, sorry, this is just rubbish.
Last edited by rgprice on Tue Jan 17, 2023 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Giuseppe
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Re: The blind of Bethsaida in Mark as evidence of Markan posteriority vis-a-vis Marcion

Post by Giuseppe »

rgprice wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:58 am literally millions of people over the past 2,000 have failed to recognize
I wonder about this: was Mark really a black box for 2000 years? Just as the Gospel of Thomas is and continues to be a black box for the outsiders.
Was a genius of a such caliber, an authentic black box, always necessary to euhemerize a deity on the earth? :scratch:
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Re: The blind of Bethsaida in Mark as evidence of Markan posteriority vis-a-vis Marcion

Post by schillingklaus »

Mk is the work of a late corruptor and degenerator of prior gospels, not of an innovative genius of any stretch.

Euhemerization and Judaization had started long before any surviving gospel text.
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