Mark G Bilby: Marcion's Gospel and Data Science

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
mlinssen
Posts: 3431
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Mark G Bilby: Marcion's Gospel and Data Science

Post by mlinssen »

gryan wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:26 am By 10 and 12 do you mean
010 Augiensis
012 Boernerianus
??
For sure

Codex Augiensis, Greek/Latin diglot, 9th CE: 010.
Codex Boernerianus, Greek/Latin interlinear diglot, 9th CE: 012
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Mark G Bilby: Marcion's Gospel and Data Science

Post by MrMacSon »

MrMacSon wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 9:47 pm


..Joshua : protagonist of the pre-70 CE Gospel; closest approximation to the Historical Jesus
....Jesus : protagonist of various Gospel strata developed after 70 CE outside of Judea



Summary Highlights of the Newly Discovered First Gospel (Qn, c. 65–69 CE) [p.20]

  1. Joshua of Nazareth (his Hebrew name) is pictured from first to last in Qn as a new Aesop: a brilliant, witty, justice-minded slave who speaks truth to power. The Qn opening quotation, "Physician, heal yourself" (Luke 4.23), recalls Aesop's fable, "The Frog and the Fox." Joshua nearly being thrown off a (geographically non-existent) cliff in Nazareth (Luke 4.29–30) imitates the Aesop Romance, which ends with him thrown off a cliff. The Aesop opening of Qn casts Joshua's escape from Nazareth as the story of a runaway Galilean slave who had been Hellenized. Lk2 confirms yet transforms this base plot by expanding the Nazareth sermon into a declaration of Jubilees, the 50th year when slaves were freed and debts forgiven, akin to the City Dionysia festival and its manumission of slaves. As a famous slave and gifted storyteller who proved himself more intelligent than his master and rival philosophers, Aesop routinely got into trouble by speaking truth to power. The resurrected Joshua’s final saying in Qn (Luke 24.25), "O dullards and sluggards in heart", is a verbatim metrical quotation from two Aesopian fables: "The Fox and the Goat at the Well" and "The Frogs at the Wedding of the Sun".
    .
  2. Joshua in Qn performs a creative array of prophetic, restorative speech-acts (blessing the poor; cursing the rich; healing words; oracles; moral guidance; aphorisms; fables) all aimed at freeing people from slavery, debt, and social stigma, and at the just distribution of food and money.
    .
  3. Like the Gospel of Mark, Qn has no birth, infancy, or childhood narratives. Unlike the Gospel of Mark, Qn has no baptism, temptation, or opening heavenly portent making Joshua the messiah.
    .
  4. In Qn, the first male follower of Joshua is a Roman centurion, who is there from the start of his public life to its end at the crucifixion.
    .
  5. In Qn, the first patrons of Joshua were women, and a woman (likely Miryam, ie. the Mary later called Magdalene) is the one who anoints him as messiah through sexual congress. The early stratum of Mark (Mk1) later misogynistically undermined and displaced all of this by having Jesus baptized in the Jordan river by a man (John the Baptist) and affirmed as the "son of god" (the Davidic messiah) directly by god as a father figure through a heavenly portent. In Mk1, Jesus then calls twelve male disciples at the start of his ministry after going up a mountain as if divinely orchestrated; but all of this is absent from Qn. Mk1 also likely omitted the tradition of Miryam anointing Joshua as messiah, only for it to reappear in later strata of Mark in keeping with its displacement by JnR1 to the end of the ministry of Jesus.
    .
  6. The transfiguration in Qn serves a clear, unique purpose as the start of a new exodus and the first occasion where Joshua is openly recognized as messiah by a group of men (three disciples, Moses, and Elijah) and by a heavenly portent. Moses and Elijah are paradigmatic prophet-leaders of resistance movements. Mk1 later borrows the male witness and heavenly portent motifs ("this is my beloved son") and narrates them back into Jesus' baptism (which was not present in Qn), yet still copied and transformed the Qn Transfiguration story, leading to redundant messianic heavenly portents in Mk1 and its heirs (Mt1, Lk2, Jn2, etc.).
    .
  7. In Qn, the seventy apostles of Joshua are armed with staffs, comprising what looks to be a formidable gang of would-be bandits ready to loot rich Romans and their wealthy Judean enablers.
    .
  8. Qn contains our earliest retrievable form of the Lord's Prayer, a form distinctive for its simple monotheism and pleas for revolutionary empowerment, food distribution and debt forgiveness.
    .
  9. Qn contains the entire fable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. This earliest major, signature fable likely influenced retellings such as the raising of Lazarus in the Gospel of John, and signature fables such as the sheep and goats in Matthew 25 and the Good Samaritan in Lk2.
    .
  10. Joshua and Miryam in Qn are pictured as slave revolt co-leaders akin to Spartacus (antiquity's most famous rebel slave) and Boudica (who led a Celt revolt just before Qn was composed).
    .
  11. Qn concludes with a female-led revolutionary resurrection story for Joshua where Miryam, now partnered to James, still leads the movement, the empty tomb signifies the rebirth of political revolution which Moses and Elijah bless incognito, all the while the men do not believe the women

I'm revisiting this
  • to highlight Mark's views that aspects of some early Christian narratives mimic Aesop's fables; and
  • to point out that 'Joshua'/Y'shua = Ἰησοῦς, Iesous = Jesus;
    • which, in turn, are 'interpretations of various nomina sacra: Ἰη/IH, Ἰς/IΣ, Ἰης/IHC, etc.,



. Joshua = Iesous : protagonist of the pre-70 CE Gospel ...
.. Iesous = Jesus : protagonist of various Gospel strata developed after 70 CE outside of Judea


Summary Highlights of the Newly Discovered First Gospel (Qn, c. 65–69 CE) [p.20]
  1. Iesous of Nazareth (his [Greek] name) is pictured from first to last in Qn as a new Aesop: a brilliant, witty, justice-minded slave who speaks truth to power. The Qn opening quotation, "Physician, heal yourself" (Luke 4.23), recalls Aesop's fable, "The Frog and the Fox." Iesous nearly being thrown off a (geographically non-existent) cliff in Nazareth (Luke 4.29–30) imitates the Aesop Romance, which ends with him thrown off a cliff. The Aesop opening of Qn casts Iesous's escape from Nazareth as the story of a runaway Galilean slave who had been Hellenized. Lk2 confirms yet transforms this base plot by expanding the Nazareth sermon into a declaration of Jubilees, the 50th year when slaves were freed and debts forgiven, akin to the City Dionysia festival and its manumission of slaves. As a famous slave and gifted storyteller who proved himself more intelligent than his master and rival philosophers, Aesop routinely got into trouble by speaking truth to power. The resurrected Iesous’s final saying in Qn (Luke 24.25), "O dullards and sluggards in heart", is a verbatim metrical quotation from two Aesopian fables: "The Fox and the Goat at the Well" and "The Frogs at the Wedding of the Sun".
    .
  2. Iesous in Qn performs a creative array of prophetic, restorative speech-acts (blessing the poor; cursing the rich; healing words; oracles; moral guidance; aphorisms; fables) all aimed at freeing people from slavery, debt, and social stigma, and at the just distribution of food and money.
    .
  3. Like the Gospel of Mark, Qn has no birth, infancy, or childhood narratives. Unlike the Gospel of Mark, Qn has no baptism, temptation, or opening heavenly portent making Iesous the messiah.
    .
  4. In Qn, the first male follower of Iesous is a Roman centurion, who is there from the start of his public life to its end at the crucifixion.
    .
  5. In Qn, the first patrons of Iesous were women, and a woman (likely Miryam, ie. the Mary later called Magdalene) is the one who anoints him as messiah through sexual congress. The early stratum of Mark (Mk1) later misogynistically undermined and displaced all of this by having Iesous baptized in the Jordan river by a man (John the Baptist) and affirmed as the "son of god" (the Davidic messiah) directly by god as a father figure through a heavenly portent. In Mk1, Iesous then calls twelve male disciples at the start of his ministry after going up a mountain as if divinely orchestrated; but all of this is absent from Qn. Mk1 also likely omitted the tradition of Miryam anointing Iesous as messiah, only for it to reappear in later strata of Mark in keeping with its displacement by JnR1 to the end of the ministry of Iesous.
    .
  6. The transfiguration in Qn serves a clear, unique purpose as the start of a new exodus and the first occasion where Iesous is openly recognized as messiah by a group of men (three disciples, Moses, and Elijah) and by a heavenly portent. Moses and Elijah are paradigmatic prophet-leaders of resistance movements. Mk1 later borrows the male witness and heavenly portent motifs ("this is my beloved son") and narrates them back into Iesous' baptism (which was not present in Qn), yet still copied and transformed the Qn Transfiguration story, leading to redundant messianic heavenly portents in Mk1 and its heirs (Mt1, Lk2, Jn2, etc.).
    .
  7. In Qn, the seventy apostles of Iesous are armed with staffs, comprising what looks to be a formidable gang of would-be bandits ready to loot rich Romans and their wealthy Judean enablers.
    .
  8. Qn contains our earliest retrievable form of the Lord's Prayer, a form distinctive for its simple monotheism and pleas for revolutionary empowerment, food distribution and debt forgiveness.
    .
  9. Qn contains the entire fable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. This earliest major, signature fable likely influenced retellings such as the raising of Lazarus in the Gospel of John, and signature fables such as the sheep and goats in Matthew 25 and the Good Samaritan in Lk2.
    .
  10. Iesous and Miryam in Qn are pictured as slave revolt co-leaders akin to Spartacus (antiquity's most famous rebel slave) and Boudica (who led a Celt revolt just before Qn was composed).
    .
  11. Qn concludes with a female-led revolutionary resurrection story for Iesous where Miryam, now partnered to James, still leads the movement, the empty tomb signifies the rebirth of political revolution which Moses and Elijah bless incognito, all the while the men do not believe the women

And see
vocesanticae wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 9:15 am
lclapshaw wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 9:49 am
You know, we absolutely know that there was a thriving publishing industry in the Mediterranean during the time that the NT material was being written. This is a fact that is supported by numerous primary sources. Also, fiction was very popular, we absolutely know this for sure. The problem with our current view of the NT material imo is that it is being touted as being only in the purview of religion instead of simply being a form of popular literature for that time. The Gospel stories et all were obviously popular enough for the publishing industry to jump on to. The market became flooded with knockoffs, what we have now is simply the best of that run, the best of. This can be seen in the form of all the Acts and Martyr stories that never made it into the Cannon but were obviously very popular none the less.

When viewed this way, the overall picture looks a lot clearer. The NT stories and letters made a profit so publishing houses cranked them out. Simple. Until the market for them cooled that is.

Completely in agreement. To explore some of the connections drawn between canonical and non-canonical gospels and acts with the earliest Greek novels, as well as the Aesopian romance, check out:

Brant, Jo-Ann A., Hedrick, Charles, and Chris W. Shea. Ancient Fiction: The Matrix of Early Christian and Jewish Narrative. Society of Biblical Literature Symposium Series 32. Atlanta: SBL, 2005.

Hock, Ronald F., Chance, J. Bradley, and Judith Perkins, eds. Ancient Fiction and Early Christian Narrative. SBL Symposium Series. Atlanta: Scholars, 1998.

Litwa, M. David How the Gospels Became History: Jesus and Mediterranean Myths. Synkrisis. Berlin: De Gruyter, 2019. esp. chap 11 on Pharmakos

Walsh, Robyn Faith. The Origins of Early Christian Literature. Contextualizing the New Testament within Greco-Roman Literary Culture. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2021. (especially the chapter on Aesop)

Last edited by MrMacSon on Thu Nov 16, 2023 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
vocesanticae
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:10 pm

Re: Mark G Bilby: Marcion's Gospel and Data Science

Post by vocesanticae »

Thanks for bringing this up. While the nomina sacra are certainly evident throughout manuscripts of the canonical texts of Luke and the 10 letter collection of Paul, they aren't generally used in the scholarly reconstructions of Marcion's texts, or in the scholarly editions of the patristic texts that serve as the primary basis for the Marcionite reconstructions.

To what extent nomina sacra are used in the manuscripts of the texts of Tertullian, Epiphanius, and Adamantius Dialogue--and specifically in the attestations to Marcion's scriptures--is a topic that I haven't yet seen explored in the scholarly literature. If there is literature in this area which I should consult, please feel free to point me in that direction.

Is there an alternate theory for the meaning of the various nomina sacra that you would support? And if so, how would that change the significance of the Marcionite texts, or the canonical texts for that matter?
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Mark G Bilby: Marcion's Gospel and Data Science

Post by MrMacSon »

vocesanticae wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 6:46 am To what extent nomina sacra are used in the manuscripts of the texts of Tertullian, Epiphanius, and Adamantius Dialogue--and specifically in the attestations to Marcion's scriptures--is a topic that I haven't yet seen explored in the scholarly literature. If there is literature in this area which I should consult, please feel free to point me in that direction.
  • I'm not aware of any such literature. Even if any Patristic Fathers had used nomina sacra, what's the chances that later copiers of their writings would have retained them or replaced them with the full terms or names? Would we expect to see [the Greek] nomina sacra (or Latin representations of them ] in the extant versions of the texts of Patristic Fathers who wrote in Latin (especially in the writings of pre-Nicene Patristics)?
  • As you note:
    vocesanticae wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 6:46 am they [ie. nomina sacra] aren't generally used...in the scholarly editions of the patristic texts that serve as the primary basis for the Marcionite reconstructions
    I don't think there's any reason to expect them to have been [or to be] a consideration in the scholarly reconstructions of Marcion's text.

vocesanticae wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 6:46 am Is there an alternate theory for the meaning of the various nomina sacra that you would support? And if so, how would that change the significance of the Marcionite texts, or the canonical texts for that matter?
  • I don't think there are any good complete explanations for the use of the nomina sacra beyond their obvious use for words for entities or concepts of entities which were revered. I wonder if there is some ambiguity for what at least a few of them might have been thought to refer to by people of the times, eg., the nomina sacra interpreted as being for Lord, Saviour, Christ and even Iesous/Jesus (+/- other nomina sacra).

    I think there's a huge elephant [not noticed or not discussed much if at all] in the study-of-early-Christianity 'room' and that is the development of early Christianity in the period after the advent of the imperial cults: the cults of the Roman emperors especially but not limited to those of the Caesars Julius and Augustus (perceptions of which varied regionally and chronologically: the cult of Julius Caesar is said to have persisted more regionally than in cities, and, on preliminary study, seems to have persisted longer than for many other emperors).
Post Reply