if Paul was anti-Logia, then also Mark was anti-Logia

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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if Paul was anti-Logia, then also Mark was anti-Logia

Post by Giuseppe »

Jarek Stolarz makes a good point:
A brilliant and universal product.
After 13 hours of driving, an epiphany came to me and I understood Paul.
In a world where there is no written gospel and the earthly Jesus is a collection of various oral stories, Paul decided to write a universal product for all sects, congregations and itinerant preachers. In it he referred to his own revelation and avoided making any declarations about the historical Jesus like the plague. Why? Because it would limit the market of recipients of his product. Declaring himself on the side of one myth or another, who supposedly Jesus Christ was, would cause problems for himself, and he only wanted to sell a book called Pauline Corpus. Sell to all willing buyers without unnecessary and irritating discussions.
I had previously come across another explanation by Bart Ehrman as to why the historical Jesus is not present in Paul's letters. Bart compared Paul's letters to the results of the MBL games printed in the press for baseball fans. They do not need to print rules and regulations because they know them perfectly well. They only want to know the latest results.
The problem is that in the first century there are no written rules and regulations of baseball or the life of Christ. The situation is exactly the opposite.
Selling his teaching, Paul derives it from the vision of the resurrected Jesus and has full control over the product. Sometimes women teach and prophesy and sometimes they listen to their husbands, sometimes we eat meat and sometimes we are vegetarians, parousia? - puts three proposals in the letters. Paul can be quoted or you can use his invaluable wisdom as your own. An excellent universal product written by ghostwriters.

(my bold)

Hence the trajectory would be something of similar to this:

logia (oracles of the Lord Jesus) ----> fabricated Paul ---> gospels.

"John the Baptist" may resume, as invented icon, what was the polemical target of Paul, Mark and Marcion: the guy who, as a free electron, talks 'in the name of the Lord', without control at all.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: if Paul was anti-Logia, then also Mark was anti-Logia

Post by GakuseiDon »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:57 pm Jarek Stolarz makes a good point:
A brilliant and universal product.
After 13 hours of driving, an epiphany came to me and I understood Paul.
In a world where there is no written gospel and the earthly Jesus is a collection of various oral stories, Paul decided to write a universal product for all sects, congregations and itinerant preachers. In it he referred to his own revelation and avoided making any declarations about the historical Jesus like the plague. Why? Because it would limit the market of recipients of his product. Declaring himself on the side of one myth or another, who supposedly Jesus Christ was, would cause problems for himself, and he only wanted to sell a book called Pauline Corpus. Sell to all willing buyers without unnecessary and irritating discussions.
I had previously come across another explanation by Bart Ehrman as to why the historical Jesus is not present in Paul's letters. Bart compared Paul's letters to the results of the MBL games printed in the press for baseball fans. They do not need to print rules and regulations because they know them perfectly well. They only want to know the latest results.
The problem is that in the first century there are no written rules and regulations of baseball or the life of Christ. The situation is exactly the opposite.
Selling his teaching, Paul derives it from the vision of the resurrected Jesus and has full control over the product. Sometimes women teach and prophesy and sometimes they listen to their husbands, sometimes we eat meat and sometimes we are vegetarians, parousia? - puts three proposals in the letters. Paul can be quoted or you can use his invaluable wisdom as your own. An excellent universal product written by ghostwriters.

That's a terrible point. Jarek didn't refer to one action or one saying by Jesus above to make his point, which shows he either doesn't know any sayings or actions by Jesus, or he didn't do it because it would limit the market of recipients of his product.
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Giuseppe
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Re: if Paul was anti-Logia, then also Mark was anti-Logia

Post by Giuseppe »

Why do you say so? Paul talks continually about talking in tongues and other phenomena of spiritual possession, hence revealing a background where a lot of people talked "in the name of Jesus", as divinely inspired.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: if Paul was anti-Logia, then also Mark was anti-Logia

Post by GakuseiDon »

We can't draw conclusions from why someone didn't mention something without taking into the context the audience or subject matter to whom the person is writing. For example, "Justin Martyr didn't know about Paul!" is one of the stupidest conclusions reached on this board, given that 2 of the 3 letters he wrote was to the Roman Emperor and Senate and in the 3rd there isn't much room for Paul to make an appearance.

I agree with Stolarz from the quote you gave above that Paul is trying to sell something to his audience, but the idea that Paul was avoiding mentioning what are basically Gospel-like details requires Paul to have thought of Jesus in Gospel-like details. From the passages we have from Paul, he didn't think of Jesus in those terms.
rgprice
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Re: if Paul was anti-Logia, then also Mark was anti-Logia

Post by rgprice »

No, just no...
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