The "Anonymous" Document in the British Museum Which Confirms Marcion's Gospel Began With a Descent in Judea Author IDed

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Irish1975
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Re: The "Anonymous" Document in the British Museum Which Confirms Marcion's Gospel Began With a Descent in Judea Author

Post by Irish1975 »

MrMacSon wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:19 pm I think it's more likely to reflect a lack of awareness of Galatians 4[:4] or avoidance of it. Besides, 'not born of a woman' seems to be Marcionite.
My thought was that the canonical emendation of Galatians 4:4, adding “born of a woman, born under the law”, would have been a known and convenient weapon against Marcionites, for someone as orthodox as Jacob. By attributing “not born of a woman” to Marcion, he is simply citing the very text that had been contrived and inserted centuries earlier for the purpose of refuting the heretic out of the mouth of his apostle.
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Re: The "Anonymous" Document in the British Museum Which Confirms Marcion's Gospel Began With a Descent in Judea Author

Post by John2 »

Irish1975 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:00 pm
Both Jacob and the academic commentator seem to forget that Mark's Gospel also says nothing about lineage, seed, flesh, or Mary.

What about 6:3? ("Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?")
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Irish1975
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Re: The "Anonymous" Document in the British Museum Which Confirms Marcion's Gospel Began With a Descent in Judea Author

Post by Irish1975 »

John2 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:49 pm
Irish1975 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:00 pm
Both Jacob and the academic commentator seem to forget that Mark's Gospel also says nothing about lineage, seed, flesh, or Mary.

What about 6:3? ("Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?")
Very well. I forgot that Mark cites the name ‘Mary.’

Nevertheless, the mere lack of a virgin birth story, or a claim to Davidic or Abrahamic seed quality, or a rant about flesh, ought not put Mark under the suspicion, for Jacob, of teaching docetism. He seems to think that Marcion was a docetic heretic precisely because he failed to include these Lukan, Johannine bits.
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Secret Alias
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Re: The "Anonymous" Document in the British Museum Which Confirms Marcion's Gospel Began With a Descent in Judea Author

Post by Secret Alias »

It attributes an implausible saying to Marcion, apparently as direct discourse, consisting of recycled heresiology.
So what other source would the Marcionites be citing here other than gospel? One of the Happy Days novels.

Image

It's sort of like, if the Samaritans cite something about Moses it's found in the Pentateuch. If the Marcionites say something about Jesus the source can only be the gospel. My porn addicted friend Peter something he saw jerking off last night.
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Re: The "Anonymous" Document in the British Museum Which Confirms Marcion's Gospel Began With a Descent in Judea Author

Post by rgprice »

Irish1975 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:58 pm
John2 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:49 pm
Irish1975 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:00 pm
Both Jacob and the academic commentator seem to forget that Mark's Gospel also says nothing about lineage, seed, flesh, or Mary.

What about 6:3? ("Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?")
Very well. I forgot that Mark cites the name ‘Mary.’
Yeah but.... I'm not so sure that the name Mary was in the original version of Mark.

If we take Mark as the first Gospel (some now dispute), we can take "proto-Luke", John, and Marcion as works derived from Mark, none of which use the name Mary for the mother of Jesus.

I suspect that when Mark was added to the NT collection in the mid 2nd century that the editor engaged in some harmonization and put the name Mary into Mark from Matthew.

Of course we may never be able to prove this.
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Irish1975
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Re: The "Anonymous" Document in the British Museum Which Confirms Marcion's Gospel Began With a Descent in Judea Author

Post by Irish1975 »

"For Marcion said, ‘Our Lord was not born from a woman

but rather stole the place of the maker,
Ok maybe this is a strange idea— that the Marcionite Lord “stole the place of the maker.” Brings to mind the harpagmon of Phiippians 2:6, but that hardly clarifies it.
came down,
How can this be a heretical concept, much less a reference to the supposed descent to Capharnaum (or the road to Jericho, if you like)? By Jacob’s time the Christian empire for 200 years had recited the creed of a son of god who “came down from heaven.” Completely banal.
and appeared first between Jerusalem and Jericho
Is this setting related to some Gospel episode?
as a human being through a pretence, through illusions and in a likeness, for he did not have a body.’
docetism for kids
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Giuseppe
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Re: The "Anonymous" Document in the British Museum Which Confirms Marcion's Gospel Began With a Descent in Judea Author

Post by Giuseppe »

What this Jacob adds of new is only this point:

but rather stole the place of the maker

The place of the maker is expected by the Scriptures for YHWH and his messiah. If Marcion's Jesus is said to have stolen a such place, then the entire point is that Marcion used the Jewish scriptures to describe the descent of the alien, not of the messiah of YHWH.
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Irish1975
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Re: The "Anonymous" Document in the British Museum Which Confirms Marcion's Gospel Began With a Descent in Judea Author

Post by Irish1975 »

rgprice wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:58 pm Yeah but.... I'm not so sure that the name Mary was in the original version of Mark.
Another decisive insight?

Take up thy Sharpie, reader. Strike out "Mary" from Mark 6:3, and replace it with "Paula" ("Sophie"? "Georgette"?).

(Sarcasm. I couldn't resist.)
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Irish1975
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Re: The "Anonymous" Document in the British Museum Which Confirms Marcion's Gospel Began With a Descent in Judea Author

Post by Irish1975 »

Giuseppe wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:37 pm What this Jacob adds of new is only this point:

but rather stole the place of the maker

The place of the maker is expected by the Scriptures for YHWH and his messiah. If Marcion's Jesus is said to have stolen a such place, then the entire point is that Marcion used the Jewish scriptures to describe the descent of the alien, not of the messiah of YHWH.
Does Jacob even know that Marcion "used the Jewish scriptures"?

Maybe "the place of the maker" is just the lower cosmos. "Stole" might be satirical, with a meaning closer to "usurped" or something. But it would be a little odd if Jacob were taking for granted the gnostic multi-level cosmos, and satirizing it. As I said earlier, most of his statement is sophomoric, recycled, generic.
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Re: The "Anonymous" Document in the British Museum Which Confirms Marcion's Gospel Began With a Descent in Judea Author

Post by rgprice »

Irish1975 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:07 am
rgprice wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:58 pm Yeah but.... I'm not so sure that the name Mary was in the original version of Mark.
Another decisive insight?

Take up thy Sharpie, reader. Strike out "Mary" from Mark 6:3, and replace it with "Paula" ("Sophie"? "Georgette"?).

(Sarcasm. I couldn't resist.)
Then one has to explain why John and Marcion/Luke removed the name Mary...
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