The "Anonymous" Document in the British Museum Which Confirms Marcion's Gospel Began With a Descent in Judea Author IDed

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Secret Alias
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Re: The "Anonymous" Document in the British Museum Which Confirms Marcion's Gospel Began With a Descent in Judea Author

Post by Secret Alias »

Also makes it a 5th - 6th century witness rather than 7th.
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Re: The "Anonymous" Document in the British Museum Which Confirms Marcion's Gospel Began With a Descent in Judea Author

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Any details? I don't have access.
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Re: The "Anonymous" Document in the British Museum Which Confirms Marcion's Gospel Began With a Descent in Judea Author

Post by MrMacSon »

Jacob of Serugh, Letter 23 (Olinder, Epistulae, 200.25-201.4; Albert, Les lettres, 258):


"It is then necessary to understand that the Spirit of God, who spoke through the glorious Luke, was looking towards the things to come, for it knew that stumbling blocks would spring up on the path of Christ’s economy. There were many standing ready to entangle the orthodox doctrines of the gospel and feigning to speak about Christ, ‘He did not come in the flesh, nor did he become incarnate with a body of the house of Adam’ – that is, Marcion, Mani, Bardaiṣan, and the others who deny the incarnation of our Lord and do not teach that he received from the seed of Abraham69 according to the sound teaching of the divine Gospel.70

"For Marcion said, ‘Our Lord was not born from a woman but rather stole the place of the maker, came down, and appeared first between Jerusalem and Jericho as a human being through a pretence, through illusions and in a likeness, for he did not have a body.’

"In no way does he bring in the story of the blessed Mary in his teaching nor does he confess that he received a body from her and appeared in the flesh, as the Holy Scriptures teach. As for Mani, he completely defiles the body of the house of Adam and says, ‘From the [divine] being came the evil one, the body, darkness and the serpent.’ Bardaiṣan regards the body in the same way, ‘It is from matter, was created from the filth of wickedness, is unclean and does not have a resurrection72."

https://www.academia.edu/51412242/The_A ... Full_Text_


69 The phrase ‘that he received from the seed of Abraham’ is admittedly difficult to bring out in English. Olinder, Comments, 93 proposed adding [...] as the understood object of [...]: ‘he received [his beginning] from the seed of Abraham’. This seems too strong an emendation, especially since there are now two witnesses to the text. My translation of this phrase parallels that found in Albert, Les lettres, 258.

70 Jacob of Serugh, Letter 23 (Olinder, Epistulae, 200.25-201.4; Albert, Les lettres, 258). The legible text on British Library, Add. 17251, fol. 30r begins with the word [...] (201.1; probably spelled [...]). Although the text is sometimes difficult to read for the remainder of the passage, there do not appear to be any deviations from the critical edition.

72 Jacob of Serugh, Letter 23 (Olinder, Epistulae, 200.25-201.4; Albert, Les lettres, 258). Olinder, Comments, 94 recommends two changes to the punctuation that I have not adopted here on the basis of my examination of the primary manuscript witness (London, British Library, Add. 14587, fol. 70r–v). There are only four differences in the consonantal text between the critical edition and the text in London, British Library, Add. 17251, fol. 30r ... Only the second of these ([...] for [...]) affects the translation: rather than ‘for he did not have a body’, the passage would be translated as ‘which [i.e. the likeness] did not have a body’.

.

Last edited by MrMacSon on Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The "Anonymous" Document in the British Museum Which Confirms Marcion's Gospel Began With a Descent in Judea Author

Post by MrMacSon »

pp. 557-8:


... the description of Marcion’s views on the incarnation reflects polemical discourse against him and is less likely to be reliable.74

Second, Marcion’s quotation can now be investigated as a part of the Syriac heresiological tradition. Zahn suggested that the quotation probably belongs to a heresiological work such as that of Eznik of Kołb, while Harnack had suggested that the author may have been Ephrem. We can now confidently attribute this quotation to an author who belonged to the learned Syriac cultural circles of the late fifth and early sixth centuries. It should thus be interpreted as a part of the Syriac heresiological tradition in which Marcion, Mani and Bardaiṣan played important roles. Jacob himself lists the three of them together in one of his christologically focused letters. He may well have inherited the polemic against Marcion found in Letter 23 from another source. Further, if one wishes to take the attribution of the quotation to Marcion seriously, one should consider the process of transmission from Greek to Syriac. In his review of recent reconstructions of Marcion’s text, BeDuhn criticised Roth for his silence ‘on the method by which he derives Greek text from non-Greek sources’. He argued that one must investigate ‘the possible Greek variants that might lurk behind a Latin or Syriac or Armenian translation’.77 With the knowledge that the present quotation appears in a Syriac work, one could begin to consider what Greek text – beyond the phrase ‘came down’ – may have stood behind the Syriac text.

Third and finally, Jacob’s quotation of this passage in the context of a question regarding the genealogies of Matthew and Luke could be significant for an investigation of Marcion’s Gospel and the polemic against him. As the previous section has shown, the phrase ‘came down’ prompted Harnack to associate the passage with Luke 4.31 and thus the beginning of Marcion’s Gospel. According to Epiphanius, Marcion’s Gospel did not include a genealogy of Jesus. The letter’s reference to Marcion’s omission of ‘the history of the Blessed Mary … as the Holy Scriptures teach’ could form an additional connection to the same place in Epiphanius’ work, which mentions the lack of an account of ‘the angel proclaiming the good news to the virgin Mary’. It would be a stretch to consider this as evidence that Jacob himself was directly familiar with Marcion’s Gospel. It does, however, at least seem plausible that a polemical tradition against Marcion connected the lack of a genealogy in his Gospel with a criticism of his view on the incarnation.

These three observations are meant as a potential starting point for a more detailed investigation of the witness of this quotation to Marcion’s Gospel or his thought ...

https://www.academia.edu/51412242/The_A ... Full_Text_

74 On the attribution of this view to Marcion, especially in the works of Tertullian, see C.Markschies, Gottes Körper: Jüdische, christliche und pagane Gottesvorstellungen in der Antike (Munich: Beck, 2016) 380-2.

77 BeDuhn, ‘New Studies of Marcion’s Evangelion’, ZAC 21 (2017) 8-24; at 11.



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Re: The "Anonymous" Document in the British Museum Which Confirms Marcion's Gospel Began With a Descent in Judea Author

Post by Irish1975 »

MrMacSon wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:24 pm
"For Marcion said, ‘Our Lord was not born from a woman but rather stole the place of the maker, came down, and appeared first between Jerusalem and Jericho as a human being through a pretence, through illusions and in a likeness, for he did not have a body.’

Well this says nothing about a Marcionite Gospel. It attributes an implausible saying to Marcion, apparently as direct discourse, consisting of recycled heresiology.

"Not born of a woman" could be an allusion to Galatians 4.

Both Jacob and the academic commentator seem to forget that Mark's Gospel also says nothing about lineage, seed, flesh, or Mary.
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Re: The "Anonymous" Document in the British Museum Which Confirms Marcion's Gospel Began With a Descent in Judea Author

Post by MrMacSon »

Irish1975 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:00 pm
MrMacSon wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:24 pm
"For Marcion said, ‘Our Lord was not born from a woman but rather stole the place of the maker, came down, and appeared first between Jerusalem and Jericho as a human being through a pretence, through illusions and in a likeness, for he did not have a body.’

Well this says nothing about a Marcionite Gospel. It attributes an implausible saying to Marcion, apparently as direct discourse, consisting of recycled heresiology.

"Not born of a woman" could be an allusion to Galatians 4.
.

I think it's more likely to reflect a lack of awareness of Galatians 4[:4] or avoidance of it. Besides, 'not born of a woman' seems to be Marcionite.

The next sentence in that letter is

"In no way does he bring in the story of the blessed Mary in his teaching nor does he confess that he received a body from her and appeared in the flesh, as the Holy Scriptures teach.

And Forness notes

It [all] should thus be interpreted as a part of the Syriac heresiological tradition in which Marcion, Mani and Bardaiṣan played important roles. Jacob himself lists the three of them together in one of his christologically focused letters. He may well have inherited the polemic against Marcion found in Letter 23 from another source. Further, if one wishes to take the attribution of the quotation to Marcion seriously, one should consider the process of transmission from Greek to Syriac ... With the knowledge that the present quotation appears in a Syriac work, one could begin to consider what Greek text – beyond the phrase ‘came down’ – may have stood behind the Syriac text.

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Re: The "Anonymous" Document in the British Museum Which Confirms Marcion's Gospel Began With a Descent in Judea Author

Post by mlinssen »

Allegedly 8th CE according to teh author and some homemade paleography of pages 543-544

https://www.academia.edu/51412242/The_A ... Full_Text_

Typical Huller thread again, completely content-free upon closer investigation (which is brought about by the cooperative spirit of this forum and certainly not any - gawds forbid - attempt on his own part) of the evidence at hand that is scraped together from the corners of the universe at considerable force
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Re: The "Anonymous" Document in the British Museum Which Confirms Marcion's Gospel Began With a Descent in Judea Author

Post by rgprice »

I do find it interesting how this related to the Vision of Isaiah:

"For Marcion said, ‘Our Lord was not born from a woman but rather stole the place of the maker, came down, and appeared first between Jerusalem and Jericho as a human being through a pretence, through illusions and in a likeness, for he did not have a body.’

Vision of Isaiah also states that the Beloved descended through the heavens and was transfigured into the form of a human upon entering the earthly realm. And that the Beloved used trickery and illusion to make it appear that he was human so-as to trick his way into being executed so that he could enter the realm of Satan.

So it sounds to me like Marcion's view has much in common with VoI, though of course VoI is surely Jewish in origin. I suspect that Marcion's viewes were influenced by a narrative like that of VoI.

Now, if we didn't have VoI, then maybe one could argue that these are just baseless accusations against Marcion, but in fact the works of Paul and the claims of Marcion resemble the account of Vision of Isaiah more than orthodox concepts of Jesus do.

Again I come back to the idea that a narrative like Vision of Isaiah is what started it all. I suspect Paul knew the narrative, that Mark knew the narrative, which influenced his narrative, and that Marcion had heard a version of the narrative.
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