Vision of Isaiah as source of the mystery

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rgprice
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Vision of Isaiah as source of the mystery

Post by rgprice »

Paul, The Gospel of Mark, the Gospel of John, and Marcion all address the idea that the identity of the savior was secret in some way.

1 Cor 2:
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


John 1:
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.


Mark 1:
24 “What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!”

25 “Be quiet!” said Jesus sternly. “Come out of him!” 26 The impure spirit shook the man violently and came out of him with a shriek.

And of course many other such scenes in Mark.

Of Marcion:
For Marcion said, ‘Our Lord was not born from a woman but rather stole the place of the maker, came down, and appeared first between Jerusalem and Jericho as a human being through a pretence, through illusions and in a likeness, for he did not have a body.’

From the Vision of Isaiah:
From the sixth heaven there are no longer *angels* on the left, nor a throne set in the midst, but (they are directed) by the power of the seventh heaven, where dwelleth He that is not named "and the Elect One, whose name has not been made known, and none of the heavens can learn His name“. 8. For it is He alone to whose voice all the heavens and thrones give answer. I have therefore been empowered and“ sent to raise thee here that thou mayest see this glory, 9. And that thou mayest see the Lord of all those heavens and these thrones. He will undergo (successive) transformation until He resembles human form. Indeed I say unto thee, Isaiah; No man about to return into a body of that world has "ascended or“ seen what thou seest or perceived what thou hast perceived and what thou wilt see.


Nevertheless they see and know whose will be thrones, and whose the crowns when He has descended, and been made in your form, and they will think that He is flesh, and is a man“. 14. And the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son,and they will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him not knowing who He is. 15. And thus His descent, “' as you will see, will be hidden even from the heavens, so that it will not be known who He is“. 16. And when He hath plundered the angel of death, He will ascend on the [and he will remain in that world five hundred and forty -five days].


Go forth and descend through all the heavens, and thou wilt descend to 'the firmament and“ that world: to the angel in Sheol thou wilt descend, ' but to Hague] thou wilt not go“. firmament [and the angels also who are in I I. And none of the angels of that world shall know "that Thou art Lord with Me of the seven heavens and of their angels. I 2. And they shall not know that Thou art with Me, till voice I have called (to) the heavens, and their angels and their lights, (even) unto the sixth heaven, in order that you may still judge and destroy“ the princes and angels and gods’“ of that world, and the world that is dominated by them: I 3. For they have denied Me and said: We alone are and there is none beside us.


And I saw when He made Himself like unto the form of the angels in the second heaven, and they saw Him and they did not praise Him; for His form was like unto their form. 27. And again I saw when He descended“ into the first heaven, “and there also He gave the password to those who kept the gate, and He made. Himself form of the angels who were on the left of that throne“, and they neither. praised nor lauded Him; for His form was like unto their form. Ir28. But as for me no one asked me on account of the angel who conducted me“. 29. And again He descended into the firmament where dwelleth the ruler of this world“, and He gave the password “to those on the left,“ and His form was like theirs, and they did not praise Him there 'but they were envying one another and fighting; for here there is a power of evil and envying about trifles“. 30. And I saw v when He descended “and made Himself like“ unto the angels of the air, and He was like one of them. 31. And He gave no password; for one was plundering and doing violence to another.“

... (pocket gospel)

18. And when He had grown up He worked great signs and wonders in the land of Israel and of Jerusalem. And after this the adversary envied Him and roused the children of Israel against Him“, not knowing who He was, and they delivered Him to the king, and crucified Him, and He descended to the angel.

It seems to me that this narrative explains many aspects of later narratives and beliefs. It is easy to see how Marcionite beliefs could stem from a story like this.

But in Vision of Isaiah "the god of that world" is Beliar/Satan. Yet it seems that Marcion took "the god of that world" to be Yahweh. But according to many Qumranic writings various sects of Jews, like the ones at Qumran viewed Beliar/Satan as the "lord of this world". And the whole point of the War Scroll and other such writings was that the world was presently ruled by Beliar/Satan and the Sons of Light needed to overthrow the rule of Beliar/Satan through military conquest, presumably by defeating the Romans militarily.

It seems to be that Vision of Isaiah builds on the themes of the story of Judith, to say that Beliar/Satan cannot be defeated by direct military confrontation, rather the Messiah must defeat Beliar/Satan through deception, just as Judith did. So the Heavenly Messiah must disguise himself (like Judith) to trick his way into the realm of Beliar/Satan, just as Judith disguised herself to make her way into the camp of Holofernes. And once in the realm of Beliar/Satan, then the Messiah can defeat him "in his own camp", just as Judith beheaded Holofernes in his own bed. So this all builds on existing Jewish literary traditions that stem from stories about how to overcome what appear to be insurmountable odds.

But it seems to me that what happened was that this Vision of Isaiah narrative came before any of the other Gospels, and Marcion knew this story. The writer of Mark also knew the story, but when Mark wrote his narrative, he intentionally contradicted the pre-existing Vision of Isaiah narrative. In Mark's story the Jews were not deceived into killing the Messiah by not knowing who he was, rather Mark made them knowing accomplices.

It seems that Marcion was trying to reconcile the Marcan narrative with the prior narrative from Vision of Isaiah, in which the heavenly Messiah descends directly into this world and is transfigured into the form of a man, whereby he deceives the Jews into crucifying him so that he can enter the realm of Beliar/Satan.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Vision of Isaiah as source of the mystery

Post by GakuseiDon »

Good post! This is an interesting topic. I suspect it was driven in earliest Christianity by the question: How did the Christ (later, God Himself), get down to earth without there having been prophecies from angels, or daemons, or oracles found in pagan books like the Sibylline Books ("wisdom of the princes of the age), etc? Why, it's because it was a mystery kept secret by God and hidden from all, including the angels!

We can also find hints of this in Ignatius's letter to the Ephesians:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... berts.html

Let my spirit be counted as nothing for the sake of the cross, which is a stumbling-block to those that do not believe, but to us salvation and life eternal. "Where is the wise man? where the disputer?" Where is the boasting of those who are styled prudent? For our God, Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost. He was born and baptized, that by His passion He might purify the water.

Now the virginity of Mary was hidden from the prince of this world, as was also her offspring, and the death of the Lord; three mysteries of renown, which were wrought in silence by God.

As Christianity developed, 'prophecies' about Christ coming started to be found everywhere, including in pagan writings by the Second and Third Century Christians. For Justin Martyr, the reason that the pagans didn't recognise them was because the devils peddled stories from the Old Testament but got them wrong.
rgprice
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Re: Vision of Isaiah as source of the mystery

Post by rgprice »

Right. In the original story the identity of the Messiah was hidden and unknown, just as Marcion believed. And he descended directly to earth and was transfigured into the form of a man, just a Marcion believed.

But, he was sent by the Jewish God. However, the theological scheme of the original story inventor held that the world was ruled by Beliar/Satan. The Jewish God was the Highest God, but he wasn't the ruler of the world. The way that the Qumranic Jews viewed it, for some reason, was that the world was indeed created by God, but for some not entirely explained reason, God handed rule of the world over to Beliar/Satan. The Qumranic Jews viewed it as their mission to return rule of the world to God by defeating Beliar/Satan.

But the originator of the Vision of Isaiah narrative viewed this as impossible, and thus postulated this Judith type story, where the Messiah defeats Beliar/Satan via disguise.

But, when Marcion came along and then started saying that the "lord of this world" was Yahweh and that the Highest God was not the Jewish God, and pointed out that the identity of the heavenly Messiah had been hidden from the prophets, then that was seen as a bridge too far, so this idea of a hidden Messiah whose identity had been unknown and unannounced had to be done away with, so we see Matthew and the like then focus on proving that the coming of the Messiah had in fact been foretold by the Jewish scriptures all along. This of course was facilitated by "Mark's" Gospel, which had been written as a pesher on the Jewish-Roman War, re-casting the story of the lead up to the destruction of the First Temple in the context of the Second Temple. So using Mark's scriptural references, "proof" of the foretelling of the Messiah was developed.

But my main point is that I think one can see from the Vision of Isaiah how both Marcionite and non-Marcionite interpretations could be developed. VoI is not Gnostic, but one can see how it could give rise to Gnostic interpretations.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Vision of Isaiah as source of the mystery

Post by MrMacSon »

Among the seven so-called authentic Pauline epistles

Romans 16:25-26:


25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ in keeping with revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages pasta 26 but now made manifest, and, by the prophetic Scriptures, made known to all nations

a χρόνοις αἰωνίοις, chronois aiōniois; or, hidden/ kept secret 'since the world began'
.

1 Thess 4:13-18:

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Thess 5:19-24:

9 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not treat prophecies with contempt 21 but test them all; hold on to what is good, 22 reject every kind of evil.
23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it.


More so in the deutero-Paulines

Colossians 1:25b-26a; 27:


... the Logos of God in its fullness—the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations ...

... God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
.

Colossians 2:2 -

My purpose is that 'they' may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that 'they' may have the full riches of complete understanding in order that 'they' may know the Mystery of God, namely Christ

Colossians 4:3 -

And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the Mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains.

Ephesians 1:9-10

He made known to us the Mystery of His will...which He purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

Ephesians 3:3 and v.4 (among vv. 3:2-5):

2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed

Last edited by MrMacSon on Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Vision of Isaiah as source of the mystery

Post by MrMacSon »

In The Gnostic Paul: Gnostic Exegesis of the Pauline Letters, 1975/1992, Elaine Pagels examined 2nd century interpretations and exegesis interpretations of the Pauline epistles. Despite the traditional characterization of Paul as an opponent of 'the Gnostics', and of 'Gnosticism' as unbiblical and inherently at odds with “true Christianity,” Pagels argued that, through the 2nd century a.d., there were two antithetical traditions of Pauline exegesis: one read Paul 'gnostically' and the other anti-gnostically.
... she argued that it is important to consider how the anti-gnostic exegesis of the heresiologists may have influenced our understanding of Paul’s letters – in other words, how the [2nd century] reception history of texts impacts the way those texts themselves are understood. ...Pagels showed how traditional scholarship on the Valentinians had been shaped by the polemics of the second- and third century heresiologists, and she [Pagels] employed close textual analysis to deepen our understanding of both Valentinian and non-Valentinian Christianity.

Philippa Townsend, 'Explorations at the Edges of Orthodoxy: Elaine Pagels’ Study of the Early Christian World', in Beyond the Gnostic Gospel: Building on the Work of Elaine Pagels, Tübingen : Mohr Siebeck, 2013; pp. 1-16.
.
See also Pagels, “‘The Mystery of the Resurrection’: A Gnostic Reading of 1 Corinthians 15,” JBL 93 (1974): 276–88.[/quote]
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Vision of Isaiah as source of the mystery

Post by Leucius Charinus »

From another thread:
rgprice wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:11 pm... though of course VoI is surely Jewish in origin.
This is an essential point of contention. Why do you (and many others) believe it is Jewish? And why the surety in this belief?

Do you also think that the tracts in the NHL which mention the various ascents and descents of the "Savior and the Apostles", the arrangements of many heavens, the passwords at each, the Platonic-influenced Genesis creation stories and many other features, are also Jewish in origin?

rgprice wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:06 am But in Vision of Isaiah "the god of that world" is Beliar/Satan. Yet it seems that Marcion took "the god of that world" to be Yahweh. But according to many Qumranic writings various sects of Jews, like the ones at Qumran viewed Beliar/Satan as the "lord of this world". And the whole point of the War Scroll and other such writings was that the world was presently ruled by Beliar/Satan and the Sons of Light needed to overthrow the rule of Beliar/Satan through military conquest, presumably by defeating the Romans militarily.
It is quite reasonable that the DSS reflect the suppression of a generation of a Jewish sect by the Roman military BCE. It is also reasonable that the VoI reflect the suppression of another generation in the common era by the Roman military.

You have drawn this parallel which is quite reasonable. However what is not being discussed is another parallel. Namely whether it is also reasonable to view the NHL tracts as reflecting a later CE suppression of another generation of CE writers by the all-powerful Roman Archons and their military machine.

A simple fact is that the NHL is physically dated to the mid 4th century. Another simple fact is that Jerome is our first witness to the AoI. These facts beg the question as to whether the AoI is actually late, and more attuned and more at home with the NHL tracts rather than the DSS tracts.

The presumptions that the AoI is either Jewish or "early" could be entirely wrong.
But it seems to me that what happened was that this Vision of Isaiah narrative came before any of the other Gospels, and Marcion knew this story. The writer of Mark also knew the story, but when Mark wrote his narrative, he intentionally contradicted the pre-existing Vision of Isaiah narrative. In Mark's story the Jews were not deceived into killing the Messiah by not knowing who he was, rather Mark made them knowing accomplices.
If that is the case and the AoI is the origin of the NT writings then why do we not have any earlier evidence for the existence of the AoI ? Why do we have no evidence for the existence of the AoI which is earlier or at least contemporaneous with the purported "early evidence" for the gospels and dated centuries prior to Jerome ?
rgprice
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Re: Vision of Isaiah as source of the mystery

Post by rgprice »

Good questions, but sure AoI has more in common linguistically with the DSS than NHL.

But I certainly would like to learn more about the dating of AoI. But to me it seems very much like something that was produced prior to the gnostic vs orthodox split and it seems like its description of the savior is shared with Paul far more than the Gospels.

But, as with all of these things, like the Apology of Aristides or the Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, we only have very late copies of these works.

Still, its a reasonable concern.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Vision of Isaiah as source of the mystery

Post by Leucius Charinus »

rgprice wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:20 pm Good questions, but sure AoI has more in common linguistically with the DSS than NHL.
Is there any scholarship on this? (I'm skeptical)
But I certainly would like to learn more about the dating of AoI.
AFAIK the early dating of the AoI was originally reliant upon identifying it to be what biblical scholars of yesteryear called a "composite text" in which there resided "early Jewish substrata". That is any reference to OT themes or characters such as Isaiah. This of course implied it was "early" --- from an epoch where Christianity and Judaism rubbed shoulders at the temple.

However there have been a number of scholars who consider that the text is not composite at all, and should be considered to be authored as a whole. This includes what is commonly known as "The Pocket Gospel" --- previously regarded as an interpolation. Vridar has the background story on this.
Giuseppe
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Re: Vision of Isaiah as source of the mystery

Post by Giuseppe »

The secrecy theme, that is different from the Messianic secrecy (the latter is found only in Mark), is a marcionite theme, according to prof Vinzent:

https://www.academia.edu/6881279/Give_a ... _of_Sinope
schillingklaus
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Re: Vision of Isaiah as source of the mystery

Post by schillingklaus »

The AoI is late Judaized piecemeal.

Only reckless apologists believe in Christianity appearing in Judea before long after the fall of The Temple.
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