Vinzent's argument for a genuine Paul

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Giuseppe
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Vinzent's argument for a genuine Paul

Post by Giuseppe »

If I understand well, the reason prof Vinzent believes that a portion of the epistles were written really by the historical Paul is that the 7 pauline epistles differ from the deutero-paulines (Colossians, Ephesians, 2 Thessalonians) and not only from the Pastorals.

In other terms, the fact that in opposition to the 7 genuine epistles there are also the deutero-paulines, and not only the catholic Pastorals (of which the polemical target is only and always: Marcion), is evidence that the genuine epistles were expanded by two different factions: the Marcionite sect and the Catholic sect.

If we had only the 7 and the Pastorals, then we would have only 2 actors in the equation: Marcion versus Catholics. With the obvious corollary that Marcion wrote the 7.

But the existence of the deutero-Paulines would prove that even in not still catholic circles, there was the need of a correction of the epistles, by adding to them new epistles working as "check bits".
lclapshaw
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Re: Vinzent's argument for a genuine Paul

Post by lclapshaw »

This is still far too simplistic. Even the so called "authentic" letters are waaaaay to long and preachy to be actual letters from antiquity. No, it should be obvious that even these "letters" are mostly fabrications by multiple people over a long time span.

There is a core of historical letters in them, I feel, but the bulk of them is pure fiction with political and theological intent.
Giuseppe
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Re: Vinzent's argument for a genuine Paul

Post by Giuseppe »

lclapshaw wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:43 am Even the so called "authentic" letters are waaaaay to long
Vinzent agrees with the fact that the authentic kernel has to be still extracted. HIs argument above is addressed against the radical critics explicitly mentioned by him: Van Manen, Detering, Robert M. Price, inter alia.

Vinzent thinks that the genuine kernel exists and can be recovered by future scholarship.
robert j
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Re: Vinzent's argument for a genuine Paul

Post by robert j »

revised below ---
Last edited by robert j on Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
lclapshaw
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Re: Vinzent's argument for a genuine Paul

Post by lclapshaw »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:53 am
lclapshaw wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:43 am Even the so called "authentic" letters are waaaaay to long
Vinzent agrees with the fact that the authentic kernel has to be still extracted. HIs argument above is addressed against the radical critics explicitly mentioned by him: Van Manen, Detering, Robert M. Price, inter alia.

Vinzent thinks that the genuine kernel exists and can be recovered by future scholarship.
Let that scholarship be us then viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10382
robert j
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Re: Vinzent's argument for a genuine Paul

Post by robert j »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:00 am
... the catholic Pastorals (of which the polemical target is only and always: Marcion) ...

robert j wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 12:51 pm
Why are the Valentinians all too often left out of these discussions? They apparently used Paul extensively.
The Pastorals, the Valentinians, and the Patristic heretic hunters ---


PastoralsPatristic Texts
… so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, nor to give heed to myths and endless genealogies which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith. (1 Timothy 1:3-4, attributed to Paul)


... if someone knowledgeable in our faith comes to these tales and immediately finds so many names of Aeons … so many offspring ... a scattered and fragmentary godhead, will he hesitate then and there to call these the "myths and endless genealogies" which the apostle's inspiration had already condemned even then when these heretical seeds were sprouting? (Tertullian, Against the Valentinians, chapter 3)


[regarding the Valentinians ---] Inasmuch as certain men have set the truth aside, and bring in deceptive words (verba falsa) and endless genealogies (genealogias infinitas), which, as the apostle says, "minister questions rather than godly edifying which is in faith," and by means of their craftily-constructed plausibilities draw away the minds of the inexperienced and take them captive ... (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Preface)


The Valentinians, as everyone knows, are the most commonly encountered sect of heretics, most common because they are mostly apostates from the true religion, quite willing to invent myths (fabulas) ... (Against the Valentinians, chapter 1, opening statement)

Giuseppe
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Re: Vinzent's argument for a genuine Paul

Post by Giuseppe »

robert j wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:26 am Why are the Valentinians all too often left out of these discussions? They apparently used Paul extensively.
Sorry. Vinzent confutes again and again the various previous attempts by scholars that the Pastorals were directed against a X different from Marcion, that the Epistle of the Twelwe Apostles was directed against a X different from Marcion, that the Ignatian epistles were directed against a X different from Marcion, that the Acts of the Apostles were directed against a X different from Marcion, that Papias was directed against a X different from Marcion, etc, etc, etc .

The principal target is always and only him: Marcion of Sinope.

Even the argument above assumes a particular weight only when the distinction is made, between an entire list of writings (=Pastorals) fabricated against only Marcion, and deutero-paulines that differ from the former.
Giuseppe
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Re: Vinzent's argument for a genuine Paul

Post by Giuseppe »


However, one argument against such a pseudonymy of the letters research considers authentic is the fact that one can distinguish between the seven letters that today tend to be attributed to Paul and the Deuteropaulines (Eph, Col, 2 Thess), which in turn can be differentiated from the Pastoral Epistles. The fact that Marcion already knew the seven plus three letters in an earlier version, to which the Pastoral Epistles were evidently not yet attached and that one can detect a redaction process, with Col and with Rom and I Cor, at the stage of adding the Pastoral Epistles, speaks in favour of the view that at least an early form of the seven letters can be assigned to the historical Paul.

(Markus Vinzent, Resetting the Origins of Christianity, p. 313, my bold)
Giuseppe
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Re: Vinzent's argument for a genuine Paul

Post by Giuseppe »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:33 am
robert j wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:26 am Why are the Valentinians all too often left out of these discussions? They apparently used Paul extensively.
Sorry. Vinzent confutes again and again the various previous attempts by scholars that the Pastorals were directed against a X different from Marcion, that the Epistle of the Twelwe Apostles was directed against a X different from Marcion, that the Ignatian epistles were directed against a X different from Marcion, that the Acts of the Apostles were directed against a X different from Marcion, that Papias was directed against a X different from Marcion, etc, etc, etc .
robert j, it is obvious that I am exaggerating the Vinzent's position, since the latter writes:

Already Maier recognized the connection between the Pastoral Epistles' target antagonists and the positions found in the Acts of Paul. But he goes beyond this by following the older position of Hans von Campenhausen, who considered 'Marcion to be the actual (though not the only) opponent' addressed in these letters.

(ibid., p. 304)

...but the general tenor of Vinzent's analysis is that really Marcion is always polemically meant somewhere in all these texts, whereas the same can't be said for other heretical groups.

Hence I learn by Vinzent a great lesson: to consider as 'sirens' the scholars who say 'you see, the Simonians are meant there', or 'you see, the Valentinians are meant there'. The true historian, as a new Odisseus, must not let himself/herself be distracted by these sirens insofar he/she has to realize that the real threat is principally: Marcion.
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