Anyone have a copy of Trobisch “Who Published the New Testament?”

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
davidlau17
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Re: Anyone have a copy of Trobisch “Who Published the New Testament?”

Post by davidlau17 »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:43 pm chapter 13 is suspected to be an interpolation because Ignatius is said to be still alive?

I take all the 'is still alive' statements in these mid 2nd century documents to be likely to be true
ie. I take all these people to be contemporaneous with each other; including a key Johannine author - John - Papias and Marcion.
No, it's suspected to be an interpolation because in chapter 9, Polycarp states:

I exhort you all, therefore, to yield obedience to the word of righteousness, and to exercise all patience, such as you have seen set before your eyes, not only in the case of the blessed Ignatius, and Zosimus, and Rufus, but also in others among yourselves, and in Paul himself, and the rest of the apostles; in the assurance that all these have not run in vain, but in faith and righteousness, and that they are now in their due place in the presence of the Lord, with whom also they suffered. For they loved not this present world, but Him who died for us, and for our sakes was raised again by God from the dead.

Yet in chapter 13, Ignatius is suddenly alive again. Polycarp knew of Ignatius' death when he wrote chapter 9, but he thinks he's alive four chapters later?

Regardless, I think I should mention that I do think Trobisch's theory that Polycarp (or someone just like him) published/finalized the NT in the 150/160s to counter Marcion's canon is a plausible one. An alternative suspect might be Theophilus of Antioch, whom Luke-Acts appears to be addressed to.
andrewcriddle
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Re: Anyone have a copy of Trobisch “Who Published the New Testament?”

Post by andrewcriddle »

Trobisch dates the death of Polycarp rather late and has him publishing the New Testament at the very end of his life when he was a frail old man (See the Martyrdom). IF Polycarp published the New Testament (and personally I'm dubious) it is more likely he did it in the 150's than the late 160's.

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mlinssen
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Re: Anyone have a copy of Trobisch “Who Published the New Testament?”

Post by mlinssen »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:43 am
Ulan wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:26 am The gospel of Luke is very sloppily edited, which gave rise to {a} this idea of a rushed edition and also to that of {b} Luke being an edit of the Marcionite gospel.
{b} - the idea of Luke being an edit of the Marcionite Gospel also came about because of what was gleaned from (i) the heresiologist's accounts of it (particularly but not just Tertullian's), and (ii) in Markus Vinzent's case, what Tertullian also said about Marcion and his interactions with 'them' ie. with Tertullian's fellow protagonists

Ulan wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:26 am
Note that Trobisch didn't suggest the whole NT was published as one piece, but in four different publication units: a four gospel book, the letters of Paul plus Hebrews, one unit containing Acts and the Catholic epistles, and Revelation as a separate thing. Acts and the Catholic epistles comprise the orthodox glue that holds all of it together, plus the pastorals.

In later years, he changed a few of these positions.
.
Have you, there, in that first paragraph (in this excerpt of your post), given a summary of Trobisch's The First Edition of the New Testament?*

FWIW, some of Trobish's more recent publications are available via his website. See
  1. viewtopic.php?p=149598#p149598 and
  2. http://trobisch.com/david/wb/pages/publications/pdf.php
The title has the reverse wrt italics ie. 'The Frist New Edition of the New Testament'
I'll just have to set one thing straight here: I don't know Trobisch, and I was referring to your quote from viewtopic.php?p=149595#p149595

The existing early specimens of the New Testament feature a closed selection of twenty-seven writings arranged in the same sequence and displaying uniform titles with very few variants. They were produced in the form of bound manuscripts and employ a unique system to mark sacred terms, the so-called nomina sacra. These features indicate that the New Testament is a carefully edited publication, rather than the product of a gradual process that lasted for centuries. Instead, it was edited and published by specific people at a very specific time and place.

But all of this is all very interesting Mac!
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mlinssen
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Re: Anyone have a copy of Trobisch “Who Published the New Testament?”

Post by mlinssen »

Some notes

1.

Johannine Priority was a thing

A. it obviously is

2.

the use of nomina sacra was pretty universal in all the early Christian [and Coptic] manuscripts and the codices (and ther *canons*); and
there were fairly consistent patterns to their use in the canons, such as the Codex Sinaiticus

A. This merely / initially establishes a thread and nothing else

3.

The notation of the nomina sacra, the codex form, the uniform arrangement and number of writings in the manuscript tradition, the formulation of the titles, and the evidence indicating that the collection was called “New Testament” from the very beginning

A. The last 3 points are false, the first 2 are not relevant. from the very beginning most certainly is untrue, unless that beginning is fixated around 200 CE or at least the writings of Irenaeus and Tertullian, whenever those took place

4.

No synod or council in antiquity ever decided on the contents of the NT.

A. Likely

5.

The parallel publishing ventures of the time, which tried to serve the needs of a growing Jewish and Christian readership, suggest that the formation of the Christian Bible with its two distinct parts, the Old and the New Testaments, is best interpreted on the background of the book industry of the time.

A. Nonsense to both assertions

6.

Literature. The perception that the NT constitutes a literary unit FF

A. Absolutely brilliant and a great find

7.

By mentioning Luke and Mark in the same sentence (Phlm 24) readers are reminded that Luke knew Mark and that on a literary level Luke’s gospel is to be seen as an improved edition of Mark

A. And, of course, primarily, to assert that Mark preceded "Luke"

8.

The editors of the Canonical Edition, however, lift John from obscurity and make him a prominent voice in the New Testament.13 Next to Paul with fourteen writings, John is the author of five writings, followed by Peter and Luke with two writings each.14 The remaining four authors, Matthew, Mark, and Jesus’ brothers James and Jude each only have one writing to their name

A. Very interesting - now why would they do that and STILL out John in the back?

9.

Paul only knows Christ spiritually. John experienced both: the man Jesus and the resurrected Christ.

A. People fuss over this without any reason whatsoever. Paul was set out to discuss not the person but the movement: as such, he had to distance himself from IS and couldn't talk about the person from personal experience. Yet in order to establish a link and some authority, the vision from IS is made up.
THERE'S NOTHING MORE TO IT THAN THAT
rgprice
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Re: Anyone have a copy of Trobisch “Who Published the New Testament?”

Post by rgprice »

I want to highlight this again as it did not get a reply.
rgprice wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:50 pm
Irenaeus mentions Polycarp in Adv. Haer., III.3.4.
But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time, a man who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles, that, namely, which is handed down by the Church. There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, "Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within." And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, "Dost thou know me? "I do know thee, the first-born of Satan." Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, "A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." There is also a very powerful Epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those who choose to do so, and are anxious about their salvation, can learn the character of his faith, and the preaching of the truth. Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles.

Is Irenaeus stating here that Polycarp brought the New Testament collection to the Rome?
andrewcriddle
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Re: Anyone have a copy of Trobisch “Who Published the New Testament?”

Post by andrewcriddle »

In one sense I agree with Trobisch, that by the mid 2nd century Christians had come to a broad agreement about which were the Christian inspired texts, what would later be called the New Testament.

However, I have problems with the idea that there was at this time an official list of the Catholic Epistles, in which 1 and 2 Peter, James, Jude, 1, 2 and 3 John, are all included but Barnabas, Hermas and the Clementines are all excluded.
Firstly we have no direct evidence of the existence of such an early list, secondly later disagreements about the precise identity of the canonical Catholic Epistles would suggest otherwise.
I have particular problems with attributing such a list to Polycarp, whose letter to the Philippians uses 1 Peter and 1 John but does not refer to the other Catholic Epistles.

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rgprice
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Re: Anyone have a copy of Trobisch “Who Published the New Testament?”

Post by rgprice »

I would think more that there was a collection that did not include Barnabas, Hermas, and the Clementines, however, this collection was not yet deemed authoritative and there were other competing collections and people were still modifying collections.
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Irish1975
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Re: Anyone have a copy of Trobisch “Who Published the New Testament?”

Post by Irish1975 »

rgprice wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:40 am I want to highlight this again as it did not get a reply.
rgprice wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:50 pm
Irenaeus mentions Polycarp in Adv. Haer., III.3.4.
But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time, a man who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles, that, namely, which is handed down by the Church. There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, "Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within." And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, "Dost thou know me? "I do know thee, the first-born of Satan." Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, "A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." There is also a very powerful Epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those who choose to do so, and are anxious about their salvation, can learn the character of his faith, and the preaching of the truth. Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles.

Is Irenaeus stating here that Polycarp brought the New Testament collection to the Rome?
No, he is not stating that. His explicit theme is “the one and sole truth handed down from the apostles.” This is what morphs into the “rule of truth,” the “rule of faith,” and the later creeds.

But we can reasonably ask whether an emergence of an orthodox scriptural redaction is implied in these remarks.

What strikes me is the affirmation that Polycarp, a man Irenaeus knew, was old enough to have known apostles who saw Christ.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Anyone have a copy of Trobisch “Who Published the New Testament?”

Post by MrMacSon »

MrMacSon wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:51 pm
It'd be interesting to read these articles by David Trobisch


--, "The Gospel According to John in the Light of Marcion's Gospelbook," in Das Neue Testament und sein Text im 2.Jahrhundert, editor(s): Jan Heilmann, Matthias Klinghardt, TANZ 61 (Tübingen: Francke, 2018) 171-181.
.

  • https://www.academia.edu/38237734/The_G ... Gospelbook


    Summary

    The editors of the Gospel According to Luke clearly stated their intention in the introduction (Lk 1:1–4): They are presenting to the readers the critical work of [a] first century author Luke. Luke had had access to the earliest publications and to eyewitnesses. Luke’s work is older than Marcion’s.The Gospel According to John may have been published with the same objective. By referencing and correcting passages that were first published by Marcion, it follows the lead of the Gospel According to Luke, which immediately precedes it in the Canonical Edition. The editors express at the end (Jn21:24) that there are many other books that could be published about Jesus, but, because they discovered a manuscript written by an eyewitness, Jesus’ beloved disciple John, they imply that their gospel is better than Marcion’s book. They repeat the argument of canonical Luke and Tertullian: the 'older version' is more trust-worthy.

    If the Gospel According to John reacts to Marcion, its historical value lies in its description of what editors, publishers, and, possibly, their audience believed concerning Christ a century after Jesus’ death. This makes the Gospel According to John an excellent source to illustrate theological convictions of the developing catholic Christian movement as their leaders struggle to articulate their beliefs by narrating what Jesus did and taught in the context of Marcionite, Gnostic, Jewish, and other faith communities with ties to the Jesus tradition.
    .




--, "Formation of the New Testament," Encyclopedia of the Bible and its Reception. De Gruyter (Berlin, Boston). Editor(s): Hans-Josef Klauck, Volker Leppin, Bernard McGinn, Choon-Leong Seow, Hermann Spieckermann, Barry Dov Walfish, Eric J. Ziolkowski. , Vol 4. (2012) 897-901.
.




--, "The Book of Acts as a Narrative Commentary on the Letters of the New Testament: A Programmatic Essay," in Rethinking the Unity and Reception of Luke and Acts. Andrew F. Gregory, C. Kavin Rowe (eds.) (University of South Carolina Press, 2010) 119-127.
.

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