Did Justin introduce gospels to Rome?

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rgprice
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Did Justin introduce gospels to Rome?

Post by rgprice »

Clearly Justin Martyr had read some Gospels. Justin travelled from Palestine to Rome, supposedly converting to Christianity in Ephesus based on a man's arguments about prophecies. It seems to me that what Justin recounts is being told about stories that describe Jesus and begin shown how those stories related to the Jewish scriptures. And this amazed Justin. He then travelled on to Rome, or so the stories go, and setup shop there teaching people about Christianity.

Prior to Justin there is no indication of any knowledge of Gospel stories in Rome. Of course the record is relatively sparse.

But it stands to reason that the reason we have the works of JM are that the Roman Christians that became dominant were of Justin's school.

It doesn't seem that JM knew the canonical Gospels, but rather he knew Gospels very similar to them.

It stands to reason that the Gospel stories originated in Asia Minor around Ephesus. That as Justin travelled through this region he came into contact with these stories, which were at that time just of local interest. And Justin then brought news of these stories to Rome, where Christians already existed, but not Christians who had knowledge of any Gospel stories. This then sparked interest in Gospel stories in Rome.
Last edited by rgprice on Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Did Justin introduce gospels to Rome?

Post by MrMacSon »

I'm not sure that the 'to Rome' / 'in Rome' thing is [all] that historical. Not in the very early days of Justin (or even 'Clement of Rome', or 'Ignatius'), at least. Maybe not even for Marcion.

I think it could well be just a trope-claim to help to establish legitimacy.

I'm also not sure that Justin is even recounting stories that describe Jesus.

I think Justin is one of the first writings which provides an outline or template for the NT Jesus.

"that [Jesus] stories originated in Asia Minor around Ephesus [and], as Justin travelled through this region, he came into contact with these stories, which were at that time just of local interest ... Justin then brought news of these stories to Rome" is a reasonable set of propositions. Though, it also strikes me as the story of Ignatius. And my first thought is that if those propositions for Justin were true, the Ignatian stories could subsequently have been written and set before - said to have occurred before - such a trip of Justin.

I'm not sure what Justin refers to as 'memoirs' can be called gospels. The 'memoirs' he refers to could be Pauline epistles, whether Marcionite or pre-Marcionite would be hard to know. They could be something part of the Johannine literature as we know it or something earlier from the Johannine community. They could be some something like 1 Enoch or 4 Ezra. Or even Epistle to the Hebrews or an early version of the Book of Revelation.
Giuseppe
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Re: Did Justin introduce gospels to Rome?

Post by Giuseppe »

In my view Justin was deriving his sources from Rome itself. It was Rome the place where there were already a lot of Judaizers, otherwise there would be no need for Marcion carrying his Gospel to Rome in search for new proselites among Roman Christians.
rgprice
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Re: Did Justin introduce gospels to Rome?

Post by rgprice »

The things Justin says follow too closely to the Gospels for him not to have read Gospels, unless you are suggesting that Justin made a bunch of stuff up and that the Gospels were derived from Justin's writings... which I don't think is viable.

Here is a summary that compares Justin's statements to the Gospels: http://vridar.info/xorigins/justinnarr.htm
Giuseppe
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Re: Did Justin introduce gospels to Rome?

Post by Giuseppe »

rgprice wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:48 am The things Justin says follow too closely to the Gospels for him not to have read Gospels, unless you are suggesting that Justin made a bunch of stuff up and that the Gospels were derived from Justin's writings... which I don't think is viable.
Some stories are similar. But other stories are very different (an example: the baptism with fire on the river, or the birth in a cave). A common feature of these stories is that they resemble something of very similar, in nuce, to a proto-Matthew. I.e. our Matthew was a direct evolution of the "memories of the apostles" available to Justin.

Justin seems to be polemical against Marcion (=proto-Luke) and against some adoptionists/separationists (=Mark?).
rgprice
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Re: Did Justin introduce gospels to Rome?

Post by rgprice »

I'm not saying Justin knew "the canonical Gospels", I'm saying was Justin the one who introduces narrative stories about Jesus to Rome? Those stories would of course not have been exactly the same as the canonical ones, but would have been the first that Romans would have heard of narratives about Jesus walking around on earth and being killed by Pilate.
Giuseppe
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Re: Did Justin introduce gospels to Rome?

Post by Giuseppe »

rgprice wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:09 pm I'm not saying Justin knew "the canonical Gospels", I'm saying was Justin the one who introduces narrative stories about Jesus to Rome? Those stories would of course not have been exactly the same as the canonical ones, but would have been the first that Romans would have heard of narratives about Jesus walking around on earth and being killed by Pilate.
Justin the first in Rome? If Justin knew about Marcion, then he could have heard about him only in Rome. What interest there would be otherwise in a man from Pontus, if he wasn't in Rome?
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MrMacSon
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Re: Did Justin introduce gospels to Rome?

Post by MrMacSon »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:45 am It was Rome the place where there were already a lot of Judaizers
  • Who? Who are these Judaizers? Name them.

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:45 am It was Rome the place where there were already a lot of Judaizers, otherwise there would be no need for Marcion carrying his Gospel to Rome in search for new proselites among Roman Christians.
  • That smells of a fallacious appeal to consequences ...
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MrMacSon
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Re: Did Justin introduce gospels to Rome?

Post by MrMacSon »

rgprice wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:48 am The things Justin says follow too closely to the Gospels for him not to have read Gospels
rgprice wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:09 pm I'm not saying Justin knew "the canonical Gospels"
I know these two premises are to two different, wider points but, even so, they are still contradictory.
You should not appeal to some nebulous "Gospels" here ie. wrt to what Justin knew or, more specifically, in context, might have known

rgprice wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:48 am The things Justin says follow too closely to the Gospels for him not to have read Gospels, unless you are suggesting that Justin made a bunch of stuff up and that the Gospels were derived from Justin's writings... which I don't think is viable.
It would depend on what you mean by "a bunch of stuff." I don't think he made it all up ie. either all he wrote about or all the Jesus story.

But, yes, I think it's feasible that much of the Canonical Gospels post-date or are even, in some or many way/s, derived from Justin's writings.

rgprice wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:48 am Here is a summary that compares Justin's statements to the Gospels: http://vridar.info/xorigins/justinnarr.htm
Sure. There are 'alignments'. But many if not most scholars admit that many, most (or maybe no) pericopes in Justin do not accurately represent their counterparts in Matthew or Luke.

I think there is still an open question about which direction information flowed
  1. from Matthew, Luke or Protevangelium of James* to Justin; or
  2. from Justin to Matthew, Luke or Protevangelium of James; or
  3. a combination of those two scenarios?

    * the Diatessaron may be in play here too, wrt the birth narratives
lclapshaw
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Re: Did Justin introduce gospels to Rome?

Post by lclapshaw »

Iirc, Justin said he met an old man on the beach but never says where that beach was. Personally, I'd be a little careful in assigning that beach to Ephesus.
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