Hegesippus wrote that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water

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Giuseppe
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Hegesippus wrote that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water

Post by Giuseppe »


13 So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, “Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him. 14 Say to the owner of the house he enters, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’ 15 He will show you a large room upstairs, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there.”

(Mark 14:13-15)

If Hegesippus is correct, then we would have in all the 4 canonical gospels (Mark included) the presumed ocular witness by someone "who was there".

Only in Marcion there is not a such claim.
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mlinssen
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Re: Hegesippus wrote that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water

Post by mlinssen »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:49 am
13 So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, “Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him. 14 Say to the owner of the house he enters, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’ 15 He will show you a large room upstairs, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there.”

(Mark 14:13-15)

If Hegesippus is correct, then we would have in all the 4 canonical gospels (Mark included) the presumed ocular witness by someone "who was there".

Only in Marcion there is not a such claim.
Hegesippus is a blatantly obvious invention by Eusebius like so many others by others: Papias, Polycarp, and so on.
None of these FF can be trusted on anything, and to follow any of these threads without extreme prejudice is foolishness
Giuseppe
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Re: Hegesippus wrote that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water

Post by Giuseppe »

Sure, but my point is that the presence of that episode in Mark makes Mark more similar to the other gospels insofar there would be the claim, and only the claim, to ocular witness by the author.

We know that the episode is based on 2 Kings, etc, but even so, the function of the man with the jar is to work as ocular witness.
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mlinssen
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Re: Hegesippus wrote that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water

Post by mlinssen »

2 Kings? I am unfamiliar with men carrying water, I would expect that to be a woman's job - but a man doing so would certainly stand out as such
John2
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Re: Hegesippus wrote that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water

Post by John2 »

Where does Hegesippus say that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water?
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MrMacSon
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Re: Hegesippus wrote that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water

Post by MrMacSon »

John2 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:55 pm Where does Hegesippus say that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water?
In other words, where does Eusebius say Hegesippus said Mark was the man carrying the jar of water?
John2
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Re: Hegesippus wrote that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water

Post by John2 »

MrMacSon wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:38 pm
John2 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:55 pm Where does Hegesippus say that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water?
In other words, where does Eusebius say Hegesippus said Mark was the man carrying the jar of water?

Well, not necessarily, since other people cite Hegesippus independently of Eusebius (IIRC).
John2
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Re: Hegesippus wrote that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water

Post by John2 »

Yeah, Ben and I discussed it here (Stephen Gobar via Photius):

viewtopic.php?t=3249
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MrMacSon
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Re: Hegesippus wrote that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water

Post by MrMacSon »

John2 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:48 pm
MrMacSon wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:38 pm
John2 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:55 pm Where does Hegesippus say that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water?
In other words, where does Eusebius say Hegesippus said Mark was the man carrying the jar of water?
Well, not necessarily, since other people cite Hegesippus independently of Eusebius (IIRC).
John2 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:57 pm Yeah, Ben and I discussed it here (Stephen Gobar via Photius):
viewtopic.php?t=3249
  • No you don't [discuss other people citing Hegesippus independently of Eusebius]
    Ben posted about Hegesippus citing Photius and Lightfoot.
    You first challenged Ben on whether Hegesippus is Jewish (or not).
    Then you posted citing Eusebius:
    John2 wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:09 pm And Hegesippus not only never mentions Paul, in EH 4.21 he says (or is said by Eusebius to have said) that the "true doctrine" that the church of Corinth "continued in" consisted of "the law and the prophets and the Lord," which doesn't sound like Paul to me, but more like the Gospel of the Hebrews/Matthew (which is the only gospel Eusebius associates with him). And I've noticed that Hegesippus' contemporaries Papias and Justin Martyr also do not mention Paul (with the arguments in the latter case for him nevertheless knowing Paul sounding like the one you are making for Hegesippus, which I don't find convincing -not yours, just in the case of Justin), and that didn't stop those guys from being considered more or less "true" Christians.
    AFAIK, Photius only repeats or cites what Eusebius says about Hegesippus
eta:
Ben says Photius is citing reading 'Gobar' [who is reading Hegesippus] : dunno who [Gobar] is
In searching for 'Gobar' and 'Hegesippus', I came up with
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Hegesippus:

Hegesippus, (flourished 4th century), supposed author of a free Latin adaptation of the Jewish War of Josephus, under the title De bello Judaico et excidio urbis Hierosolymitanae. The seven books of Josephus are compressed into five, but much has been added from the Antiquities of the Jews, also by Josephus, and from the works of Roman historians, and several entirely new speeches have been introduced to suit the occasion. Internal evidence establishes that the work could not have been written before the 4th century AD. Some authorities attribute it to St. Ambrose, bishop of Milan (c. 339–397), but there is nothing to settle the authorship definitely.

John2
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Re: Hegesippus wrote that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water

Post by John2 »

MrMacSon wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:47 pm
John2 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:48 pm
MrMacSon wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:38 pm
John2 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:55 pm Where does Hegesippus say that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water?
In other words, where does Eusebius say Hegesippus said Mark was the man carrying the jar of water?
Well, not necessarily, since other people cite Hegesippus independently of Eusebius (IIRC).
John2 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:57 pm Yeah, Ben and I discussed it here (Stephen Gobar via Photius):
viewtopic.php?t=3249
  • No you don't [discuss other people citing Hegesippus independently of Eusebius]
    Ben posted about Hegesippus citing Photius and Lightfoot.
    You first challenged Ben on whether Hegesippus is Jewish (or not).
    Then you posted citing Eusebius:
    John2 wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:09 pm And Hegesippus not only never mentions Paul, in EH 4.21 he says (or is said by Eusebius to have said) that the "true doctrine" that the church of Corinth "continued in" consisted of "the law and the prophets and the Lord," which doesn't sound like Paul to me, but more like the Gospel of the Hebrews/Matthew (which is the only gospel Eusebius associates with him). And I've noticed that Hegesippus' contemporaries Papias and Justin Martyr also do not mention Paul (with the arguments in the latter case for him nevertheless knowing Paul sounding like the one you are making for Hegesippus, which I don't find convincing -not yours, just in the case of Justin), and that didn't stop those guys from being considered more or less "true" Christians.
    AFAIK, Photius only repeats or cites what Eusebius says about Hegesippus
eta:
Ben says Photius is citing reading 'Gobar' [who is reading Hegesippus] : dunno who [Gobar] is
In searching for 'Gobar' and 'Hegesippus', I came up with
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Hegesippus:

Hegesippus, (flourished 4th century), supposed author of a free Latin adaptation of the Jewish War of Josephus, under the title De bello Judaico et excidio urbis Hierosolymitanae. The seven books of Josephus are compressed into five, but much has been added from the Antiquities of the Jews, also by Josephus, and from the works of Roman historians, and several entirely new speeches have been introduced to suit the occasion. Internal evidence establishes that the work could not have been written before the 4th century AD. Some authorities attribute it to St. Ambrose, bishop of Milan (c. 339–397), but there is nothing to settle the authorship definitely.




I don't know what to make of what you're saying. As far as I can tell, Photius is citing something that Stephen Gobar (independently of Eusebius) got from "the fifth book of his [Hegesippus'] Commentaries" and Ben and I talked about it.
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