Hegesippus wrote that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water

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John2
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Re: Hegesippus wrote that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water

Post by John2 »

Peter notes it here as well:

6. Stephen Gobar refers to Hegesippus ...


https://peterkirby.com/that-hegesippus-was-papias.html

Gobar is thought to have lived in the sixth century CE, since "the latest author [he] quotes is Severus of Antioch" (who died in 538 CE).


https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ch ... frontcover
John2
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Re: Hegesippus wrote that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water

Post by John2 »

I can't think of any other examples besides Gobar though, now that I refresh my memory. And I can't think of any citations in Eusebius where Hegesippus says that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water.
Giuseppe
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Re: Hegesippus wrote that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water

Post by Giuseppe »

This is the passage I mean:

And Mark was one of the Seventy Disciples. And he was among the servants who poured out the water which our Lord turned into wine, at the marriage of Cana in Galilee. And it was he who carried the jar of water into the house of Simon the Cyrenian, at the time of the sacramental Supper. And he also it was who entertained the disciples in his house, at the time of the Passion of the Lord Christ, and after his Resurrection from the |140 dead, where he entered to them while the doors were shut. And after his Ascension into heaven, Mark went with Peter to Jerusalem, and they preached the word of God to the multitudes

https://www.tertullian.org/fathers/seve ... #CHAPTER_I

I think that it is evidence that in Mark the function of the man with the jar is to work as ocular witness, which makes Mark a liar just as a liar was the author of the following interpolation in the Fourth Gospel (John 19:35 ):

The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true

...and just as a liar was the author of the following incipit in Luke:

Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,

davidlau17
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Re: Hegesippus wrote that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water

Post by davidlau17 »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:16 pm This is the passage I mean:

And Mark was one of the Seventy Disciples. And he was among the servants who poured out the water which our Lord turned into wine, at the marriage of Cana in Galilee. And it was he who carried the jar of water into the house of Simon the Cyrenian, at the time of the sacramental Supper. And he also it was who entertained the disciples in his house, at the time of the Passion of the Lord Christ, and after his Resurrection from the |140 dead, where he entered to them while the doors were shut. And after his Ascension into heaven, Mark went with Peter to Jerusalem, and they preached the word of God to the multitudes

https://www.tertullian.org/fathers/seve ... #CHAPTER_I

I think that it is evidence that in Mark the function of the man with the jar is to work as ocular witness, which makes Mark a liar just as a liar was the author of the following interpolation in the Fourth Gospel (John 19:35 ):
Following the link you provided, the text is from The History of the Patriarchs of Alexandria, a compilation attributed to Severus of El Ashmunein from the 10 century and expanded upon by later authors.

The History of the Patriarchs of Alexandria is the Liber Pontificalis of the Coptic church. The first part of it is a compilation made, as we read in one of the prefaces at the head of the manuscripts, by Severus, bishop of El-Eschmounein in upper Egypt, between Minieh and Asiout, based on Greek and Coptic documents which he found in the monasteries of his country, and which he translated with the help of some clerks. This history of the first centuries of the Coptic church is based above all on Eusebius and some primitive Acts, and Mr. Crum has discovered at the Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris some fragments of a Coptic translation of the Historia Ecclesiastica which seems to be the unfortunately incomplete original of the Arabic translation of Severus.

https://www.tertullian.org/fathers/seve ... _intro.htm

The idea that Mark was the man carrying the water jar in GMark seems to be medieval eisegesis.
Giuseppe
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Re: Hegesippus wrote that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water

Post by Giuseppe »

davidlau17 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:54 pm The idea that Mark was the man carrying the water jar in GMark seems to be medieval eisegesis.
I think that the author of Acts introduced "John Mark" assuming that he was the author of Mark. Why precisely him? Because there was the risk that the words of the Fourth Gospel
“Woman, behold your son”

were interpreted in a separationist sense (=the man on the cross, not the beloved disciple John , was the mere son meant by the spiritual Christ).

By having the mother of Jesus under the protection of a "John Mark", i.e. by the author of Mark, the readers could be secured on the fact that "John Mark" was the actual "son" of Mary, i.e. the words
“Woman, behold your son”

...were alluding really to this new "son" (=John Mark).

The implication is that the Gospel of Mark was really used by separationists/adoptionists before that it was co-opted by catholics.
Charles Wilson
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Re: Hegesippus wrote that Mark was the man carrying the jar of water

Post by Charles Wilson »

Mark 14: 13 - 16 (RSV):

[13] And he sent two of his disciples, and said to them, "Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you; follow him,
[14] and wherever he enters, say to the householder, `The Teacher says, Where is my guest room, where I am to eat the passover with my disciples?'
[15] And he will show you a large upper room furnished and ready; there prepare for us."
[16] And the disciples set out and went to the city, and found it as he had told them; and they prepared the passover.

While looking back at "Existence is not a Predicate" (Kant, Logical Positivism, et. al.), I read this Section of Mark, not as another Miracle Story, but as a Puzzle Clue that tells of someone who Was There and knew of the small Twists and Quirks of Life at the Temple AND SURROUNDS.

From New Testament Origins ( https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-Or ... C91&sr=1-1 ):

"By way of example, if you travel to to the Hawaiian island of Oahu you might ask directions to the "Chinaman's Hat". When you get to the small bay, you will not see a "Chinaman's Hat" until you look into the bay. There in the middle of that bay is a small island that looks like a "Chinaman's Hat". You may purchase various souvenirs including prints of the “Chinaman's Hat”, which shows the “hat” out of the water with a drawing of a seated old man underneath..."

Existence is not a Predicate. I assert a Type of Existence when I assert that there was Man Carrying a Jar of Water but that is no guarantee that there was an "Actual, Real" Man Carrying a Jar of Water - It doesn't matter if only Women carried the water or not back then.

The Passage points to something else. The "Man Carrying a Jar of Water" might be a shadow that aligns with a door that leads to the Priestly Rooms in Antonia in the Spring. Various possibilities arise with the Topography of Jerusalem, even including the old Hasmonean Palace in the City. We know however that there is a "Large Upper Room furnished and ready". It should be in Antonia and it is probably Anecdotal, not at all referring to a "Real Man Carrying a Jar of Water'.

The Text points to something very old but a Text that was very malleable to Roman Ends. Hence, the "ancient" (Hasmonean) Text remained.

CW

PS: The Chinaman's Hat:

Image

PPS: You may consider "Antonia" as a "Place-Marker" for whatever building stood there for the housing of the Priesthood. Herod built a passageway from Antonia to the eastern front of the Temple and that plays a huge part in understanding the NT. This limits the position of the Priestly goings-on and may imply that there was something *before* the building of Antonia - Hasmonean Texts that name an obliterated Site.

I am confident that the "Man Carrying the Water Jar" tells a Symbolic Tale, not an actual one. This Anecdote, however, would probably NOT be known to the Roman Editors and Redactors. There appear to be Texts from some who survived - Zakkai, again - who helped compose the NT. They left Clues that would not have been noticed by the Roman Overlords. This should point to Hasmonean (Pre-Roman) writings.
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