I think that the Cerinthians wrote Mark

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mlinssen
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Re: I think that the Cerinthians wrote Mark

Post by mlinssen »

Ulan wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:59 am
mlinssen wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:28 pm Is that then where XR?st comes from perhaps? Get baptised, become XRS, call yourself Chrestian as a result: XRS is the holy spirit!!!
In Paul, Christ is the Holy Spirit, yes. He works the same way as the Holy Spirit in Acts, and he is even called the life-giving spirit in 1Cor.
gMark definitely has the spirit (Christ) possessing Jesus during baptism (the point that the spirit goes into Jesus is often mistranslated), "12 And the Spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness." The abandonment of Jesus by the spirit makes his last words make more sense.

I know you know all of this, but I find the interpretation kind of obvious and don't understand when people just say it isn't so.
Honestly, I know nothing about any of this - but now I do, yes it's undeniable

καὶ (and) τὸ (the) Πνεῦμα (Spirit) ὡς (as) περιστερὰν (a dove) καταβαῖνον (descending) εἰς (upon) αὐτόν (Him).

Even Berean gets that wrong - then again they are Christians, but καταβαίνω usually puts the emphasis on where one comes from. 2. κ. εἰς . . conform to, “εἰς τοὺς Χρόνους κ. τούτους” Arist.Pol.1335a11 is the only use with εἰς, and this is really a very odd use - but the intention is clear, and can only be meant as into

Wow - this is pretty hefty stuff

viewtopic.php?p=118522#p118522 for the spirit chasers by the way
Last edited by mlinssen on Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Giuseppe
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Re: I think that the Cerinthians wrote Mark

Post by Giuseppe »


And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

(Mark 15:34)

The man on the cross believes that he has been abandoned by YHWH. This reading would suggest that he was victim of an illusion (the spiritual possessor was from a higher god, not from YHWH). The Gospel of Peter (known by Justin) has:

My Power, my Power, why have you forsaken me?

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Re: I think that the Cerinthians wrote Mark

Post by Ulan »

rgprice wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:41 am But it seems that Mark does not say that Jesus "gave up his Spirit". Only Matthew and John do.
Mark still says "ἐξέπνευσεν" during the death of Jesus in 15:37, and again in 15:39, this time functioning as proof he was the Son of God, if you want to read it literally. This leap of thought might be easier to make in a language that uses the same word for "breath" and "spirit".
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Re: I think that the Cerinthians wrote Mark

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Ulan wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:03 am
rgprice wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:41 am But it seems that Mark does not say that Jesus "gave up his Spirit". Only Matthew and John do.
Mark still says "ἐξέπνευσεν" during the death of Jesus in 15:37, and again in 15:39, this time functioning as proof he was the Son of God, if you want to read it literally. This leap of thought might be easier to make in a language that uses the same word for "breath" and "spirit".
The κεντυρίων affirms the death of Jesus in 15:39, by repeating verbatim the pivotal word of 15:37:

Mark 15:37 Ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς ἀφεὶς φωνὴν μεγάλην ἐξέπνευσεν
Mark 15:39 Ἰδὼν δὲ ὁ κεντυρίων ὁ παρεστηκὼς ἐξ ἐναντίας αὐτοῦ ὅτι οὕτως ἐξέπνευσεν, εἶπεν “Ἀληθῶς οὗτος ὁ ἄνθρωπος Υἱὸς Θεοῦ ἦν.”

Jesus exhales, ex-spirits, ἐκπνέω; from the verb πνέω (‘to breathe’) that relates to the noun πνεῦμα: ‘blast, wind’,’air, breath’, ‘spirit’. Jesus breathes out - a beautiful choice of word, isn’t it?

1. Jesus dies in Mark 15:37
2. Jesus dies in Mark 15:39, by repeating the words from the scene of 15:37 yet this time from the viewpoint of the centurion
3. Jesus is doubted by Pilate to have died in Mark 15:44, and Pilate expresses said doubt twice in one single verse
4. Jesus’ death is confirmed once again by the centurion, yet implicitly this time

What is the literal text to these verses?

1. Mark 15:37 - Jesus dies: “breathed His last” (explicit), ἐξέπνευσεν
2. Mark 15:39 - Jesus dies: “having seen that He breathed His last” (explicit), ἐξέπνευσεν
3. Mark 15:44a - Did Jesus die?: “Pilate wondered if already He had died” (explicit), τέθνηκεν
4. Mark 15:44b - Did Jesus die?: “he questioned him whether He were died already” (explicit), ἀπέθανεν
5. Mark 15:45 - Jesus has died: “having known it from the centurion” (implicit)

A typical Markan back-and-forth perhaps; two statements, two questions, one final statement reaffirming it all - there can really be no question about the outcome here, but most certainly not about the implied process. And this is the essential difference between Mark and Luke: an enormous, gigantic, overwhelming emphasis on the alleged real, actual death of Jesus. In the space of 9 verses, the death of Jesus gets explicitly named 4 times, and implicitly named 1 time in response to the last explicit mention.
The only goal? To make absolutely explicitly certain and sure that Jesus was deader than dead

... in order to build up towards Mark's Grand Surprise
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Re: I think that the Cerinthians wrote Mark

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I agree. However, I also like to point out that the centurion's statement confirming the status of "this man" comes in the very moment he observes this "ex-spiriting":

" 39 Now when the centurion who stood facing him saw that in this way he breathed his last, he said, “Truly this man was God’s Son!”" (NRSV).

As if, in this moment, he saw something that convinced him of that fact.
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Re: I think that the Cerinthians wrote Mark

Post by mlinssen »

Ulan wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:08 pm I agree. However, I also like to point out that the centurion's statement confirming the status of "this man" comes in the very moment he observes this "ex-spiriting":

" 39 Now when the centurion who stood facing him saw that in this way he breathed his last, he said, “Truly this man was God’s Son!”" (NRSV).

As if, in this moment, he saw something that convinced him of that fact.
You have a most exquisite eye for detail, and this is the second time in one day that you make my jaw drop.
What the hell is the detail of facing him doing?!?!?!?!?!?

Mark 15:39 Ἰδὼν (Having seen) δὲ (then) ὁ (the) κεντυρίων (centurion) ὁ (-) παρεστηκὼς (placed-beside) ἐξ (from) ἐναντίας (opposite of) αὐτοῦ (Him) ὅτι (that) οὕτως (thus) ἐξέπνευσεν (He breathed His last),c εἶπεν (he said), “Ἀληθῶς (Truly) οὗτος (this) ὁ (-) ἄνθρωπος (man) Υἱὸς (the Son) Θεοῦ (of God) ἦν (was)!”

Is the παρεστηκὼς on purpose? There can be only one conclusion here, namely that the κεντυρίων sees something coming out of the mouth of IS - and that can only be the XS, the holy spirit that as Πνεῦμα descended into him upon the baptism

There is something intriguing in the NHL: only Thomas contains only IS, and only the Apocryphon of John contains only XS.
We have the gospels that contain only IS, and the letters that contain only XS - and we can toss the obvious additions at beginning and end where that rule is broken, and likewise the few bits here and there in between for good measure

The gospels are about the living Jesus, the letters about the dead one. And the Apocryphon narrates after the death of Jesus, and naturally Thomas is full of the living IS and father.
Observe what the NHL is all about in one single picture:

Image

Pneuma, oceans of Pneuma. The single topic of the NHL if we have to make a single choice.
Then comes IS, and a little after XS - and at a great distance we have a SWTHR, a saviour

Pneuma is the goal, IS the agent, XS when he's dead. He is the holy spirit that enables the Chrestianos of Philip to become XRS when baptised in the name of father, son and holy spirit, and having received said holy Spirit

And Romans finally starts making sense to me: flesh is dead, Spirit is alive

9:1 I speak the truth in Christ. I am not lying. My conscience testifies for me in the Holy Spirit

And Christ is that Spirit - and the centurion sees it leaving the mouth of IS, or wherever it is from that he needs to be opposite to him in order to witness it
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Re: I think that the Cerinthians wrote Mark

Post by rgprice »

This does make some sense. But as I argue, it is really only the Gospel of Mark that makes the connection from Gospel story to Pauline letters.
The gospels are about the living Jesus, the letters about the dead one.
This is why the introduction to Mark says, "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ." This is really the title, or introductory summary of the entire work, not a banal statement about the first line of a story.

And why the end of Mark is a cliff-hanger, which actually is designed to lead the reader into Galatians. The narrative is only the beginning introduction to an account of XS that is revealed in the letters.
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Re: I think that the Cerinthians wrote Mark

Post by Giuseppe »

mlinssen wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:13 am The only goal? To make absolutely explicitly certain and sure that Jesus was deader than dead
in order to confute Marcion's docetism, i.e. the idea that the death of Jesus was only apparent.
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Re: I think that the Cerinthians wrote Mark

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Giuseppe wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:59 pm
mlinssen wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:13 am The only goal? To make absolutely explicitly certain and sure that Jesus was deader than dead
in order to confute Marcion's docetism, i.e. the idea that the death of Jesus was only apparent.
Really? Then how does Mark achieve that in his 15:37-16:8?
Does he demonstrate that Jesus is dead, only to revive him a few verses later - which results in the exact same outcome as what you allege Marcion to have asserted?
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Re: I think that the Cerinthians wrote Mark

Post by rgprice »

Ulan wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:08 pm I agree. However, I also like to point out that the centurion's statement confirming the status of "this man" comes in the very moment he observes this "ex-spiriting":

" 39 Now when the centurion who stood facing him saw that in this way he breathed his last, he said, “Truly this man was God’s Son!”" (NRSV).

As if, in this moment, he saw something that convinced him of that fact.
To add to this:

27 And with him they crucified two bandits, one on his right and one on his left. 29 Those who passed by derided him, shaking their heads and saying, ‘Aha! You who would destroy the temple and build it in three days, 30 save yourself, and come down from the cross!’ 31 In the same way the chief priests, along with the scribes, were also mocking him among themselves and saying, ‘He saved others; he cannot save himself. 32 Let the Christ, the King of Israel, come down from the cross now, so that we may see and believe.’ Those who were crucified with him also taunted him.

The Death of Jesus
33 When it was noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. 34 At three o’clock Jesus cried out with a loud voice, ‘Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?’ which means, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’ 35 When some of the bystanders heard it, they said, ‘Listen, he is calling for Elijah.’ 36 And someone ran, filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a stick, and gave it to him to drink, saying, ‘Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to take him down.’ 37 Then Jesus gave a loud cry and breathed his last. 38 And the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. 39 Now when the centurion, who stood facing him, saw that in this way he breathed his last, he said, ‘Truly this man was God’s Son!’

However, Matthew's interpretation is interesting.

45 Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabaktanei?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” 47 And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, said, “This man is calling for Elijah.” 48 And immediately one of them ran, and taking a sponge, he filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink. 49 But the rest of them said, “Let us see if Elijah comes to save Him.” 50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and gave up His spirit. 51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52 Also the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many. 54 Now as for the centurion and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the other things that were happening, they became extremely frightened and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

Firstly, v50 seems to be a typical Matthean clarification, indicating that indeed he read Mark v36 to mean that the Spirit exited Jesus. But then with v54 Matthew has the centurion, along with others, become convinced that he was God's Son based on obvious signs that would have been apparent to anyone around.

So in Mark the people also want to see the Christ leave the cross, but do not pay attention to see that this actually happens in the form of the Spirit, yet the centurion does see it happen by paying close attention and seeing something that everyone else missed. Yet in Matthew the centurion is convinced by obvious events that, rightfully, should have convinced everyone around, including the Jews. So Matthew's version of it makes a bit less sense.
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