I think that the Cerinthians wrote Mark

[mlinssen]

Oh wow Mac. The Christ as Spirit possessing Jesus after baptism! No wonder that both Mark and Matthew have Jesus

Mark 15:37 Ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς Ҫφεὶς φωνὴν μεγάλην Һξέπνευσεν

Jesus exhales, ex-spirits, Һκπνέω; from the verb πνέω (‘to breathe’) that relates to the noun πνεῦμα: ‘blast, wind’,’air, breath’, ‘spirit’. Jesus breathes out - a beautiful choice of word, isn’t

Matthew doesn’t even once explicitly name the death of Jesus, and paraphrases it with his 27:50 ‘yielded up His spirit (αφῆκεν τὸ πνεῦμα)

That would make so much sense in the context of Paul who talks almost only of Christ and not Jesus!

And naturally that fits perfectly with Philip where people call themselves Chrestian after baptism, and even become XRS

Is that then where XR?st comes from perhaps? Get baptised, become XRS, call yourself Chrestian as a result: XRS is the holy spirit!!!

[MrMacSon]

64. cf. the overlapping report in Ref. 7.33.1–2; Theodoret, Haer. fab. 2.3 (PG 83:389–92). Our author here omits a summary of Karpokrates, who was linked to Kerinthos in the main report. By placing Kerinthos after Markion and Apelles, Kerinthos is significantly postponed.

Litwa, (2016) Refutation of all Heresies, SBL Press, pp. 730-3.

pp. 566-9:

33.1. A certain Kerinthos, also trained in Egyptian learning, said that the world was created not by the primal God but by a power separate from the authority above the universe and ignorant of the God who is over all.¹⁸³

He taught that Jesus was not born from a virgin but was son of Joseph and Mary, born just like all other people—although he was more righteous and wise. 2. After his baptism, Christ descended upon Jesus from the Supreme Authority over the universe in the form of a dove.¹⁸⁴ Afterward, he preached the unknown Father and performed miracles. In the end, Christ deserted Jesus,¹⁸⁵ and Jesus both suffered and was raised. Christ, however, remained without suffering, since he was spiritual.¹⁸⁶

---

183. Our author takes his report of Kerinthos from Iren., Haer. 1.26.1 (repeated with minor variations in Ref. 10.21). Cf. Epiph., Pan. 28.1.1–7; Ps.-Tert., Adv. omn. haer. 3.2; Eusebios, Hist. eccl. 3.28; 4.14.6; 7.25. Further sources in A. F. J. Klijn and G. J. Reinink, Patristic Evidence for Jewish-Christian Sects, NovTSup 36 (Leiden: Brill, 1973), 3–19. See further Benjamin G. Wright III, “Cerinthus apud Hippolytus: An Inquiry into the Traditions about Cerinthus’s Provenance,” SecCent 4 (1984): 103–15; Pétrement, Separate God, 298–314; Christoph Markschies, “Kerinth: Wer war er und was lehrte er?,” JAC 41 (1998): 48–76; Charles E. Hill, “Cerinthus, Gnostic or Chiliast? A New Solution to an Old Problem,” JECS 8 (2000): 135–72; Matti Myllykoski, “Cerinthus,” in Marjanen and Luomanen, Companion, 211–46; Gunnar af Hällström and Oskar Skarsaune, “Cerinthus, Elxai, and Other Alleged Jewish Christian Teachers or Groups,” in Jewish Believers in Jesus, ed. Oskar Skarsaune and Reidar Hvalvik (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 2007), 488–95; Edwin K. Broadhead, Jewish Ways of Following Jesus: Redrawing the Religious Map of Antiquity, WUNT 266 (Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2011), 222–31.

Our author adds the Egyptian derivation of Kerinthos’s teaching to bolster his thesis that heresy comes from philosophy (since philosophy partially hails from Egypt: Ref. 4.43.4; 6.21.3; 9.27.3). In the table of contents to book 7 (Ref. 7.7), the Egyptian derivation of Kerinthos’s teaching is also emphasized. This does not necessarily imply that Kerinthos hailed from Egypt (though he was putatively trained in Egypt, Ref. 10.21.1). On the split between the high God and creator, see Markschies, “Kerinth,” 72–73.

184. Cf. Iren., Haer. 1.7.2; 3.11.3, with the comments of Markschies, “Kerinth,” 71–72. See also Ref. 6.35.6 (“Valentinus”); 6.47.2; 6.51.2, 4 (Markos); 7.35.2 (Theodotos the Byzantian); 7.36.1 (Theodotos). See further Hill, “Cerinthus,” 150–53.

185. P here reads χ(ριστο)ῦ, emended to Ἰησοῦ by R. Scott and Bunsen (see Marcovich’s apparatus)

186. P here reads πατρικόν (“paternal”), which Bunsen and Harvey emend to πνευματικόν (“spiritual”) from Iren., Haer. 1.26.1 (spiritalem). In the summary of Kerinthos (Ref. 10.21.3), the reading of P is πνεῦμα κυρίου (“spirit of the Lord”)

Book 7 ...........................
{table of contents} ...........................

1. The following is contained in the seventh book of the Refutation of All Heresies.
2. The view of Basileides, who, awestruck by Aristotle’s dogmas, constructed his heresy from them.
3. What Satorneilos affirms, who flourished very near the time of Basileides.
4. How also Menandros presumed to say that the world was made by angels.
5. The madness of Markion, whose dogma is neither new nor derived from holy scripture, but is derived from Empedokles.
6. How Karpokrates blabbers to no end, who also claims that what exists was made by angels.
7. That Kerinthos took nothing from scripture but manufactured his doctrine from the doctrines of the Egyptians.
8. The views of the Ebionites, who, instead, cling to Jewish customs.¹
9. How Theodotos also wandered astray, who borrows partly from Ebionite opinions and partly from those of Kerinthos.²
10. What Kerdon believed. He also voiced the doctrines of Empedokles and perversely promoted Markion.
11. How Loukianos, a disciple of Markion, shamelessly blasphemed God.³
12. That Apelles, also a disciple of Markion, did not pronounce the same doctrines as his teacher.⁴ Rather, after receiving his inspiration from the doctrines of natural philosophy, he posited his view about the nature of the universe.

1. Marcovich replaces P’s ἤθεσιν (“character traits”) with ἔθεσιν (“customs”).
2. Miller supplies ἃ δ’ τοῦ Κηρίνθου, and Marcovich supplies ἐκ (“and partly from those of Kerinthos”).
3. Marcovich emends P’s ἀπηρυθρίασε μόνος (“he alone was not ashamed”) to ἀπηρυθριασμένως (“shamelessly”), in accordance with Iren., Haer. 1.27.2 (impudorate).
4. Marcovich adds καὶ Μαρκίωνος (“also [a disciple] of Markion”) based on the summary in Ref. 10.20.1.

(pp.489-91)

[MrMacSon]

Oh wow Mac. The Christ as Spirit possessing Jesus after baptism! No wonder that both Mark and Matthew have Jesus

Mark 15:37 Ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς Ҫφεὶς φωνὴν μεγάλην Һξέπνευσεν

Jesus exhales, ex-spirits, Һκπνέω; from the verb πνέω (‘to breathe’) that relates to the noun πνεῦμα: ‘blast, wind’,’air, breath’, ‘spirit’. Jesus breathes out - a beautiful choice of word, isn’t*
.

* isn't it? I agree.

Matthew doesn’t even once explicitly name the death of Jesus, and paraphrases it with his 27:50 ‘yielded up His spirit (αφῆκεν τὸ πνεῦμα)

That would make so much sense in the context of Paul who talks almost only of Christ and not Jesus!

And naturally that fits perfectly with Philip where people call themselves Chrestian after baptism, and even become XRS

Is that then where XR?st comes from perhaps? Get baptised, become XRS, call yourself Chrestian as a result: XRS is the holy spirit!!!
.

• Yeah, this is all very interesting

From Litwa's Greek version:

πεπονθέναι τὸν Ἰησοῦν, τὸν δὲ Χριστὸν ἀπαθῆ μεμενηκέναι, πνεῦμα κυρίου ὑπάρχοντα.

21.3. ... At the end of his suffering, the Christ flew away from Jesus.66 Jesus suffered, but Christ remained without suffering, existing as the Spirit of the Lord.

[MrMacSon]

64. cf. the overlapping report in Ref. 7.33.1–2; Theodoret, Haer. fab. 2.3 (PG 83:389–92). Our author here omits a summary of Karpokrates, who was linked to Kerinthos in the main report. By placing Kerinthos after Markion and Apelles, Kerinthos is significantly postponed.

Litwa, (2016) Refutation of all Heresies, SBL Press, pp. 730-3.

pp. 566-9:

33.1. A certain Kerinthos, also trained in Egyptian learning, said that the world was created not by the primal God but by a power separate from the authority above the universe and ignorant of the God who is over all.¹⁸³

He taught that Jesus was not born from a virgin but was son of Joseph and Mary, born just like all other people—although he was more righteous and wise. 2. After his baptism, Christ descended upon Jesus from the Supreme Authority over the universe in the form of a dove.¹⁸⁴ Afterward, he preached the unknown Father and performed miracles. In the end, Christ deserted Jesus,¹⁸⁵ and Jesus both suffered and was raised. Christ, however, remained without suffering, since he was spiritual.¹⁸⁶

---

185. P here reads χ(ριστο)ῦ, emended to Ἰησοῦ by R. Scott and Bunsen (see Marcovich’s apparatus)

186. P here reads πατρικόν (“paternal”), which Bunsen and Harvey emend to πνευματικόν (“spiritual”) from Iren., Haer. 1.26.1 (spiritalem). In the summary of Kerinthos (Ref. 10.21.3), the reading of P is πνεῦμα κυρίου (“spirit of the Lord”)

The Greek:

33. 1. Κήρινθος δέ τις, <καὶ> αὐτὸς Αἰγυπτίων παιδείᾳ ἀσκηθείς, ἔλεγεν οὐχ ὑπὸ τοῦ πρώτου <θεοῦ> γεγονέναι τὸν κόσμον, ἀλλ’ ὑπὸ δυνάμεώς τινος κεχωρισμένης τῆς ὑπὲρ τὰ ὅλα ἐξουσίας καὶ ἀγνοούσης τὸν ὑπὲρ πάντα θεόν.

τὸν δὲ Ἰησοῦν ὑπέθετο μὴ ἐκ παρθένου γεγεν<ν>ῆσθαι, γεγονέναι δὲ αὐτὸν ἐξ Ἰωσὴφ καὶ Μαρίας υἱόν, ὁμοίως τοῖς λοιποῖς ἅπασιν ἀνθρώποις, καὶ δικαιότερον γεγονέναι καὶ σοφώτερον. 2. καὶ μετὰ τὸ βάπτισμα κατελθεῖν εἰς αὐτὸν [τὸν] <ἐκ> τῆς ὑπὲρ τὰ ὅλα αὐθεντίας τὸν Χριστὸν ἐν εἴδει περιστερᾶς· καὶ τότε κηρῦξαι τὸν <ἄ>γνωστον πατέρα καὶ δυνάμεις ἐπιτελέσαι. πρὸς δὲ τῷ τέλει ἀποστῆναι τὸν Χριστὸν ἀπὸ τοῦ <Ἰησοῦ>, καὶ τὸν Ἰησοῦν πεπονθέναι καὶ ἐγηγέρθαι, τὸν δὲ Χριστὸν ἀπαθῆ διαμεμενηκέναι, <πνευματικὸν> ὑπάρχοντα.

One wonders if the English translations around πνευμα / spirit are 'correct' or not

[mlinssen]

64. cf. the overlapping report in Ref. 7.33.1–2; Theodoret, Haer. fab. 2.3 (PG 83:389–92). Our author here omits a summary of Karpokrates, who was linked to Kerinthos in the main report. By placing Kerinthos after Markion and Apelles, Kerinthos is significantly postponed.

Litwa, (2016) Refutation of all Heresies, SBL Press, pp. 730-3.

pp. 566-9:

33.1. A certain Kerinthos, also trained in Egyptian learning, said that the world was created not by the primal God but by a power separate from the authority above the universe and ignorant of the God who is over all.¹⁸³

He taught that Jesus was not born from a virgin but was son of Joseph and Mary, born just like all other people—although he was more righteous and wise. 2. After his baptism, Christ descended upon Jesus from the Supreme Authority over the universe in the form of a dove.¹⁸⁴ Afterward, he preached the unknown Father and performed miracles. In the end, Christ deserted Jesus,¹⁸⁵ and Jesus both suffered and was raised. Christ, however, remained without suffering, since he was spiritual.¹⁸⁶

---

185. P here reads χ(ριστο)ῦ, emended to Ἰησοῦ by R. Scott and Bunsen (see Marcovich’s apparatus)

186. P here reads πατρικόν (“paternal”), which Bunsen and Harvey emend to πνευματικόν (“spiritual”) from Iren., Haer. 1.26.1 (spiritalem). In the summary of Kerinthos (Ref. 10.21.3), the reading of P is πνεῦμα κυρίου (“spirit of the Lord”)

The Greek:

33. 1. Κήρινθος δέ τις, <καὶ> αὐτὸς Αἰγυπτίων παιδείᾳ ἀσκηθείς, ἔλεγεν οὐχ ὑπὸ τοῦ πρώτου <θεοῦ> γεγονέναι τὸν κόσμον, ἀλλ’ ὑπὸ δυνάμεώς τινος κεχωρισμένης τῆς ὑπὲρ τὰ ὅλα ἐξουσίας καὶ ἀγνοούσης τὸν ὑπὲρ πάντα θεόν.

τὸν δὲ Ἰησοῦν ὑπέθετο μὴ ἐκ παρθένου γεγεν<ν>ῆσθαι, γεγονέναι δὲ αὐτὸν ἐξ Ἰωσὴφ καὶ Μαρίας υἱόν, ὁμοίως τοῖς λοιποῖς ἅπασιν ἀνθρώποις, καὶ δικαιότερον γεγονέναι καὶ σοφώτερον. 2. καὶ μετὰ τὸ βάπτισμα κατελθεῖν εἰς αὐτὸν [τὸν] <ἐκ> τῆς ὑπὲρ τὰ ὅλα αὐθεντίας τὸν Χριστὸν ἐν εἴδει περιστερᾶς· καὶ τότε κηρῦξαι τὸν <ἄ>γνωστον πατέρα καὶ δυνάμεις ἐπιτελέσαι. πρὸς δὲ τῷ τέλει ἀποστῆναι τὸν Χριστὸν ἀπὸ τοῦ <Ἰησοῦ>, καὶ τὸν Ἰησοῦν πεπονθέναι καὶ ἐγηγέρθαι, τὸν δὲ Χριστὸν ἀπαθῆ διαμεμενηκέναι, <πνευματικὸν> ὑπάρχοντα.

One wonders if the English translations around πνευμα / spirit are 'correct' or not

Apologies for the Greek and such in my previous post, bits fell off and didn't come through as they should have

185. P here reads χ(ριστο)ῦ, emended to Ἰησοῦ by R. Scott and Bunsen (see Marcovich’s apparatus)

What bullox is that?! Xu is genitive / dative for XS, no debate possible. Here, look at the χρυ in Bezae:

viewtopic.php?p=148683#p148683

186. P here reads πατρικόν (“paternal”), which Bunsen and Harvey emend to πνευματικόν (“spiritual”) from Iren., Haer. 1.26.1 (spiritalem). In the summary of Kerinthos (Ref. 10.21.3), the reading of P is πνεῦμα κυρίου (“spirit of the Lord”)

WTF ... these people should be ...

Cringing Greek as usual, with accusatives and infinitives as if it's all baby talk - this is typical Roman Greek, or rather, Christian Greek

He taught that Jesus was not born from a virgin but was son of Joseph and Mary, born just like all other people—although he was more righteous and wise. 2. After his baptism, Christ descended upon Jesus from the Supreme Authority over the universe in the form of a dove.184 Afterward, he preached the {perceived, understood, known} Father and performed miracles. In the end, Christ deserted XS,185 and Jesus both suffered and was raised. Christ, however, remained without suffering, already existing as the father.186

ὑπάρχοντα, participium acc 3rd sg of ὑπάρχω

Does P really read Χριστὸν ἀπὸ τοῦ χυ Mac? That is a mystery

[MrMacSon]

Apologies for the Greek and such in my previous post, bits fell off and didn't come through as they should have

• I got the just of it especially wrt to πνευμα, etc.

185. P here reads χ(ριστο)ῦ, emended to Ἰησοῦ by R. Scott and Bunsen (see Marcovich’s apparatus)

What bullox is that?! Xu is genitive / dative for XS, no debate possible. Here, look at the χρυ in Bezae:

viewtopic.php?p=148683#p148683

Does P really read Χριστὸν ἀπὸ τοῦ χυ Mac? That is a mystery
.

Yeah, it is a mystery.
Litwas wrote that it 2015-16. It's a thorough, well footnoted book, but I guess he could have got some things wrong or left unexplained.

186. P here reads πατρικόν (“paternal”), which Bunsen and Harvey emend to πνευματικόν (“spiritual”) from Iren., Haer. 1.26.1 (spiritalem). In the summary of Kerinthos (Ref. 10.21.3), the reading of P is πνεῦμα κυρίου (“spirit of the Lord”)

WTF ...

Cringing Greek as usual, with accusatives and infinitives as if it's all baby talk - this is typical Roman Greek, or rather, Christian Greek

He taught that Jesus was not born from a virgin but was son of Joseph and Mary, born just like all other people—although he was more righteous and wise. 2. After his baptism, Christ descended upon Jesus from the Supreme Authority over the universe in the form of a dove. Afterward, he preached the {perceived, understood, known} Father and performed miracles. In the end, Christ deserted XS, and Jesus both suffered and was raised. Christ, however, remained without suffering, already existing as the father.

ὑπάρχοντα, participium acc 3rd sg of ὑπάρχω [https://biblehub.com/greek/5225.htm]

Not sure 'already existing as the father' works ??

The Greek:

33. 1. Κήρινθος δέ τις, <καὶ> αὐτὸς Αἰγυπτίων παιδείᾳ ἀσκηθείς, ἔλεγεν οὐχ ὑπὸ τοῦ πρώτου <θεοῦ> γεγονέναι τὸν κόσμον, ἀλλ’ ὑπὸ δυνάμεώς τινος κεχωρισμένης τῆς ὑπὲρ τὰ ὅλα ἐξουσίας καὶ ἀγνοούσης τὸν ὑπὲρ πάντα θεόν.

τὸν δὲ Ἰησοῦν ὑπέθετο μὴ ἐκ παρθένου γεγεν<ν>ῆσθαι, γεγονέναι δὲ αὐτὸν ἐξ Ἰωσὴφ καὶ Μαρίας υἱόν, ὁμοίως τοῖς λοιποῖς ἅπασιν ἀνθρώποις, καὶ δικαιότερον γεγονέναι καὶ σοφώτερον. 2. καὶ μετὰ τὸ βάπτισμα κατελθεῖν εἰς αὐτὸν [τὸν] <ἐκ> τῆς ὑπὲρ τὰ ὅλα αὐθεντίας τὸν Χριστὸν ἐν εἴδει περιστερᾶς· καὶ τότε κηρῦξαι τὸν <ἄ>γνωστον πατέρα καὶ δυνάμεις ἐπιτελέσαι. πρὸς δὲ τῷ τέλει ἀποστῆναι τὸν Χριστὸν ἀπὸ τοῦ <Ἰησοῦ>, καὶ τὸν Ἰησοῦν πεπονθέναι καὶ ἐγηγέρθαι, τὸν δὲ Χριστὸν ἀπαθῆ διαμεμενηκέναι, <πνευματικὸν> ὑπάρχοντα.

One wonders if the English translations around πνευμα / spirit are 'correct' or not
.

[Ulan]

Is that then where XR?st comes from perhaps? Get baptised, become XRS, call yourself Chrestian as a result: XRS is the holy spirit!!!

In Paul, Christ is the Holy Spirit, yes. He works the same way as the Holy Spirit in Acts, and he is even called the life-giving spirit in 1Cor.
gMark definitely has the spirit (Christ) possessing Jesus during baptism (the point that the spirit goes into Jesus is often mistranslated), "12 And the Spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness." The abandonment of Jesus by the spirit makes his last words make more sense.

I know you know all of this, but I find the interpretation kind of obvious and don't understand when people just say it isn't so.

[rgprice]

Again I think that our version of Mark has to some degree been harmonized to Matthew. I wonder about this passage:

12 And the Spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. 13 He was in the wilderness for forty days, tempted by Satan; and he was with the wild beasts; and the angels waited on him.

I had previously considered that all of v12-13 was secondary harmonization, but perhaps instead it is just the part that is underlined. It seems that the original may have read:

12 And the Spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. 13 He was in the wilderness for forty days and he was with the wild beasts; and the angels waited on him.

There was no temptation by Satan here. Why does the Spirit drive him to Satan? It really makes no sense in the story either.

In Luke and Matthew the temptation by Satan is used to establish the fact that Satan is the "lord of this world", the adversary of Jesus. But this is not really a concern in Mark. More important, Jesus' secrecy makes no sense if Jesus has already confronted Satan. And this seems to contrast with the verse where Jesus says that Peter is Satan, and in fact in commentaries on Mark v13 is used to counter the interpretation that Jesus is literally identifying Peter as Satan.

But I think not. I think that Satan here was introduced to Mark via harmonization to Matthew when the four Gospel collection was made.

[Giuseppe]

The baptism plus the cry on the cross make very much the point of a Separationist christology to be a mere coincidence with the independent fact that the Cerinthians used Mark.

[rgprice]

But it seems that Mark does not say that Jesus "gave up his Spirit". Only Matthew and John do.