I consider convincing Hermann Detering’s argumentation for the dependency of the Markan recension of SA from the Matthean one (regardless of mutual relations between these gospels in general)
Priest Basil Lourié agrees with Detering: Mark 13 is based on Matthew
Priest Basil Lourié agrees with Detering: Mark 13 is based on Matthew
https://brill.com/view/journals/scri/11 ... anguage=en
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schillingklaus
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Re: Priest Basil Lourié agrees with Detering: Mark 13 is based on Matthew
This proves once more the absolute falsity of Markan prioritism.
Lourie is important for the connection of the SynApo to the Jewish liturgical calendar.
Lourie is important for the connection of the SynApo to the Jewish liturgical calendar.
Re: Priest Basil Lourié agrees with Detering: Mark 13 is based on Matthew
From the abstract:
Errr..... you already found your "source". The source is 1 Thess 4–5.
The “Synoptic Apocalypse” (SA) is a modern title for the apocalyptic material contained in the Synoptic gospels. The title implies that this material goes back to a common source. The same source was used in other early Christian works, namely, the Revelation of John,1 1 Thess 4–5,2 the Apocalypsis Petri,3 the Epistula Apostolorum (s. below), and some others.
Errr..... you already found your "source". The source is 1 Thess 4–5.
Re: Priest Basil Lourié agrees with Detering: Mark 13 is based on Matthew
As for alternating dependencies, I think we simply have to recognize the way that texts were transmitted in this period. The idea of strict linear transmissions is just entirely inaccurate.
Let's suppose for sake of argument that A' is a document. A is created at point in time 0. A copy of A' is made. In the process slight changes are made, so now we have A2. A copy of A2 is made, now yielding A3. From A3 a major revision is made introducing significant new material, so we now have Ab'. A copy of Ab' is made, now yielding Ab2. In the meantime, a copy of A3 was made yielding A4. Now a copy of A2 is made in the presence of Ab2, yielding A2*wb2, etc., etc. and on and on it goes.
Now A2*wb2 is basically a copy of A2 with minor influences from Ab2.
I think this has definitely happened in Mark, so I see no reason to dispute this opinion, though I'd still need to really dig into it to fully form an opinion.
Let's suppose for sake of argument that A' is a document. A is created at point in time 0. A copy of A' is made. In the process slight changes are made, so now we have A2. A copy of A2 is made, now yielding A3. From A3 a major revision is made introducing significant new material, so we now have Ab'. A copy of Ab' is made, now yielding Ab2. In the meantime, a copy of A3 was made yielding A4. Now a copy of A2 is made in the presence of Ab2, yielding A2*wb2, etc., etc. and on and on it goes.
Now A2*wb2 is basically a copy of A2 with minor influences from Ab2.
I think this has definitely happened in Mark, so I see no reason to dispute this opinion, though I'd still need to really dig into it to fully form an opinion.
Re: Priest Basil Lourié agrees with Detering: Mark 13 is based on Matthew
I follow the argument about the calendrical outline of the parables. But I don't follow the argument as to why Mark is dependent on Matthew. Explain?
Re: Priest Basil Lourié agrees with Detering: Mark 13 is based on Matthew
I think I follow his argument, but I'm not sure I find it totally convincing.
It seems that the argument is that the parable of the fig tree and the analogy about keeping awake while the master is away, appear to be part of a larger discourse. Therefore, the shorter discourse in Mark appears to be an excerpt from the longer discourse in Matthew.
I would say this is possible, but it seems also possible that Matthew is an expansion on Mark. Even if the calendrical reading of Matthew is correct, it doesn't require that Mark uses an excerpt from the calendar.
I guess I would say that I find this argument plausible, but not definitive. It is also not the only possibility. For example, a derivation of Matthew and canonical Mark from a longer proto-Mark is also a possible solution.
As for the passages about staying alert:
Yeah. I agree its a bit confusing. I'm not quite sure what to make of it.
It seems that the argument is that the parable of the fig tree and the analogy about keeping awake while the master is away, appear to be part of a larger discourse. Therefore, the shorter discourse in Mark appears to be an excerpt from the longer discourse in Matthew.
I would say this is possible, but it seems also possible that Matthew is an expansion on Mark. Even if the calendrical reading of Matthew is correct, it doesn't require that Mark uses an excerpt from the calendar.
I guess I would say that I find this argument plausible, but not definitive. It is also not the only possibility. For example, a derivation of Matthew and canonical Mark from a longer proto-Mark is also a possible solution.
As for the passages about staying alert:
1 Thessalonians 5:
1 Now as to the periods and times, brothers and sisters, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord is coming just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction will come upon them like labor pains upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness, so that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then, let’s not sleep as others do, but let’s be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who are drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let’s be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore, encourage one another and build one another up, just as you also are doing.
1 Now as to the periods and times, brothers and sisters, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord is coming just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction will come upon them like labor pains upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness, so that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then, let’s not sleep as others do, but let’s be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who are drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let’s be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore, encourage one another and build one another up, just as you also are doing.
Matthew 24:
32 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: as soon as its branch has become tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 At that time there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 For this reason you must be ready as well; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
45 “Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household slaves, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ 49 and he begins to beat his fellow slaves, and he eats and drinks with those habitually drunk; 50 then the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect, and at an hour that he does not know, 51 and he will cut him in two and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
32 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: as soon as its branch has become tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 At that time there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 For this reason you must be ready as well; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
45 “Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household slaves, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ 49 and he begins to beat his fellow slaves, and he eats and drinks with those habitually drunk; 50 then the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect, and at an hour that he does not know, 51 and he will cut him in two and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mark 13:
28 ‘From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
32 ‘But about that day or hour no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Beware, keep alert; for you do not know when the time will come. 34 It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his slaves in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch. 35 Therefore, keep awake—for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or at dawn, 36 or else he may find you asleep when he comes suddenly. 37 And what I say to you I say to all: Keep awake.’
28 ‘From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
32 ‘But about that day or hour no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Beware, keep alert; for you do not know when the time will come. 34 It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his slaves in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch. 35 Therefore, keep awake—for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or at dawn, 36 or else he may find you asleep when he comes suddenly. 37 And what I say to you I say to all: Keep awake.’
Luke 12:
39 ‘But know this: if the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40 You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour.
39 ‘But know this: if the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40 You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour.
Luke 21:
29 And He told them a parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees: 30 as soon as they put forth leaves, you see for yourselves and know that summer is now near. 31 So you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
34 “But be on your guard, so that your hearts will not be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that this day will not come on you suddenly, like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who live on the face of all the earth. 36 But stay alert at all times, praying that you will have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
29 And He told them a parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees: 30 as soon as they put forth leaves, you see for yourselves and know that summer is now near. 31 So you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
34 “But be on your guard, so that your hearts will not be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that this day will not come on you suddenly, like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who live on the face of all the earth. 36 But stay alert at all times, praying that you will have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
Yeah. I agree its a bit confusing. I'm not quite sure what to make of it.
Re: Priest Basil Lourié agrees with Detering: Mark 13 is based on Matthew
Klinghardt in his reconstruction shows that the language of Matthew was the language of the Gospel of Marcion. Lourie may agree when he writes:
(my bold)
I follow August Strobel’s authoritative analysis36 demonstrating that the recension of Lk 17:34–35 (“I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. There will be two women grinding meal together; one will be taken and the other left”) and not the recension of Mt 24:40–41 (“Then two will be in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding meal together; one will be taken and one will be left”) is the genuine one. The grinding women are not less characteristic for the nighttime than the sleeping men, because the grinding was women’s late evening or early morning activity.
(my bold)