Philo, Pilate, Tiberius and the Gospel of John

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maryhelena
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Philo, Pilate, Tiberius and the Gospel of John

Post by maryhelena »

This OP is a long read. I decided to post it, as it were, in one piece. While a number of posts would allow greater development of ideas, its the outline, the sketch, that concerns me at the moment. Ideas develop, they either have legs to run or they don’t.........

Philo, Pilate, Tiberius and the Gospel of John

Many are the arguments over the four New Testament gospels. The gospel of Mark is viewed by many as the first gospel of the New Testament canon, while others prefer the gospel of Matthew as being earlier. The debate over the gospels of Luke and Marcion is a constant source of debate. And the gospel of John - a gospel that got tagged on at the end of the canon almost as an afterthought and not in the same ball park as the three synoptic gospels. But what if, rather than being last, the gospel of John actually proceeded the three synoptic gospels ? I think there is a way to demonstrate that it is earlier than the synoptic gospels.

The argument that follows does not deal with Greek words or specific Jesus story details. It is based on the one story that all the gospels uphold, the one constant through all the various storytelling. The story of a Jesus crucified under Pilate in the time of Tiberius. The earliest literary reference to Pilate is in Philo’s work The Embassy to Gaius. In that work, within a story about Agrippa, Philo puts words into the mouth of Agrippa that connect Pilate to the time of Tiberius. (14 – 37 c.e. ) No specific dating for Pilate is given. It is not until the Josephan Antiquities (94/95 c.e.) that detailed dating is given for Pilate, albeit ambiguous dating. That is a time gap of 45 or more years from the death of Philo. (believed to be around 49/50 c.e.) During those 45 or more years, writers of a Jesus and Pilate crucifixion story could place their story anywhere within those 23 years of Tiberius.

The gospel of Matthew provides a birth narrative in the time of King Herod. Luke’s gospel has a birth narrative in the time of Quirinus. Mark gives no chronological marker apart from Pilate. Although the gospel of John has no birth narrative it does supply a chronological marker. Its Jesus figure is ‘not yet 50 years old’. 49 is not yet 50. 49 is a multiplication of the number 7. (7 x 7) The gospel of John has demonstrated not only an interest in Philo’s Logos it has, by its interest in the number 7, shown it is aware that Philo has linked this number to the Logos.

The gospel of John opens with a Word/Logos story.

John.1

[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Philo’s Logos story.

‘’Genesis 2:4 (LXX) provides Philo with further motifs to discuss the role of the Logos: “This is the book of the creation of heaven and earth, when it came into being” (LXX Gen 2:4).31 This refers to the perfect Logos, which moves according to the number seven and is the beginning of the creation both of the mind ordering itself according to the Ideas and of mental sense perception, if it is possible to say so, which also orders itself according to the Ideas. [Moses] calls “book” the divine Logos, in which are inscribed and engraved the structures of other things. In order that you may not suppose that the deity creates something according to definite periods of time, but may understand that the creation is beyond human perception, definition, and comprehension, he adds “when it came into being,” not defining time by a concrete figure. (All. 1.19–20)

Philo explores here the multiple meanings of the word “Logos,” which range from “word” and “book” to “rationality.” He identifies the biblical motif of a book as a reference to a superior Logos, which provides a rational structure to the world and is connected to the Platonic Ideas. While the latter are taken for granted, Philo self-consciously offers new ideas about the Logos. He is highly aware of the fact that his readers may be surprised, wondering himself whether “it is possible to say so.” The Logos is described in terms of the Pythagorean theory of numbers and then credited with a special role in the creation. Philo regards it as “the beginning” or source of the creation, suggesting an ideal creation that is not governed by such material qualities as time. Relying on Platonic and Pythagorean notions, Philo introduces radically new conceptions. Within the Platonic tradition he argues for the first time that the Ideas are not eternal but have been created by God. Within the Jewish tradition he is the first to suggest that the creation of the world has been anticipated by an ideal creation brought about by the Logos.
……..
For him it is clear that God must have initiated the creation of the Ideas via the Logos. “By his own supremely manifest and far-shining Logos,” he explains, “God creates both the Idea of the mind, which he [Moses] symbolically calls ‘heaven,’ and the Idea of sense perception, which he figuratively calls ‘earth’” (All. 1.21).

Niehoff, Maren R.. Philo of Alexandria: An Intellectual Biography (The Anchor Yale Bible Reference Library) (pp. 219-220). Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.



Philo’a story utilizes the number 7 in regard to the movement of the Logos. John’s gospel has the Jews saying its Jesus figure is ‘not yet 50’. John’s 49 year time period is undetermined.

If gJohn’s ‘not yet 50’ is to have relevance to a birth narrative that birth narrative would need to be dated prior to the death Tiberius in 37 c.e. - thereby placing a birth narrative in the time of King Herod. Keeping in mind Philo’s observation that the Logos moves according to the number seven - various dates, or time periods, for applying the 49 years are possible. After all, says Philo, ‘’the perfect Logos, which moves according to the number seven’’, suggests that time moves on even for symbolic numbers. Replay, not confinement to one specific time period, being the order of play. That is the approach used in the following argument. An approach that places the gospel of John as the master copy of the Jesus and Pilate crucifixion story. So - follow the numbers - or as that old saying advises - follow the money…….

(Use of the names John, Matthew, Luke and Mark in connection with the Gospels is simply to identify the writings and is in no way to ascribe historicity. This material is written from the perspective that the gospel figure of Jesus is a literary, not a historical figure.)

The Slavonic Josephus and The Acts of Pilate.

The Slavonic Josephus contains fragments of a story dealing with the birth of an anointed one; astronomers are searching for the child after following a star, King Herod has young children killed in Bethlehem.

And immediately he sent forth heralds throughout
the whole land that all (of) the male sex born
from now and (back) to the third year are to be
honoured and to receive (a gift of)gold. (When)
enquiring whether any (male infant) had been born
without a father they were to pretend that (Herod)
would adopt him as his son and make him king.
And since they did not discover a single such
(infant), he gave orders to kill all
6 myriad and 3000 infants.
….
And the king’s rage prevailed.
Later, they rose and told him:”Listen to your
servants, so that the Most High
may favour you. It is written that the
Anointed One is (to be)born in Bethlehem.
Even if you have no mercy on your servants,
kill those infants of Bethlehem and let the
others go”. And he gave the order and they
killed all the infants of Bethlehem.”
In the fifteenth year of his reign
he (re)built the temple
and renovated its walls,
Enclosing double the ground
and spending wealth untold.
embellishing it with beauties ineffable.

Page 261 has the story of the wonder doer crucified under Pilate.

Josephus’ Jewish War and Its Slavonic Version: A Synoptic Comparison H. Leeming (editor) K. Leeming (editor) Page 181



Why the 15th year of Herod ? One reason could be that the number seven was used to determine this date. The 15th year of King Herod (25 b.c.) is 490 years from 515 b.c (Daniel’s 70 weeks of years) That year being the completion of the Temple after the exile. The sixth year of Darius being 516 b.c. (Ezra 6:15)

Although the Slavonic Josephus does not give a date for the Jesus crucifixion story - it does indicate Pilate’s involvement. The first early date for a Jesus crucifixion story is in the Acts of Pilate (that controversial story that had Eusebius see red…..) The 7th year of Tiberius is 21 c.e. 49 years back from that date is 28 b.c. 3 years earlier than 25 b.c. - the Slavonic Josephus saying Herod killed the children under 3 years of age - hence an exact birth date not given.

Thus, so far, we have both the Slavonic Josephus birth narrative of an anointed one and the crucifixion story in Acts of Pilate using variations of Philo’s number 7 in their chronological scenarios.

The Gospel of Matthew and The Reconstructed Gospel of Marcoin

The fundamental premise of the chronological approach being followed in this OP is that all the Jesus/Pilate/Tiberius crucifixion stories - gospels - can be placed prior to the Josephan Antiquities with its ambiguous dating for Pilate.

The gospel of Matthew has no crucifixion date under Pilate and Tiberius. It’s birth narrative uses elements from the Slavonic Josephus story but moves its dating structure to late in the time of Herod. Its Jesus figure being a young child on returning to Judaea from Egypt in the time of Archelaus (4 b.c. to 6 c.e.) The latest possible date for a birth narrative that would allow for a 49 year period is 12 b.c. (49 years to the cut off year of 37 c.e.) Suggesting that the writer of this gospel had John’s formula in mind. This would make a child 8 years old when King Herod died but a young child during the 2 years, re Matthew’s gospel, of Herod’s killing the young children of Bethlehem.

The contribution of the gospel of Marcion to this movement of the number 7 is its use of the 15th year of Tiberius, 28/29 c.e. The Marcion gospel cannot move beyond 37 c.e. (end of the rule of Tiberius) but it can move backwards 7 years. 36 c.e. to 28/29e.c. The gospel of John has a three year ministry. Thus, the chronology of the gospel of Marcion allows for a crucifixion dating of around 32/33 c.e. (in the middle of the week, middle of the 7 year period prior to the death of Tiberius.) Interestingly, this dating is 490 years from the 7th year of Artaxerxes in 458 b.c. - when Ezra takes gold and silver to the Jerusalem temple.

(Whether or not Marcion was a historical figure or that this is just a name given to a specific writing of unknown origin does not impact upon the chronology contained within this gospel. Whatever are the Marcion stories recounted by ‘church fathers’ they do not remove this gospel from the overall gospel framework within which this gospel can be placed. Perhaps it was not so much Marcon’s gospel that made the ‘church father’s see red but the two gods theory plus his non-Jewish Jesus. A two gods theory problem that would not be settled until the triune god became Christian theology. Of interest regarding the two gods theory is this book:

Two Gods in Heaven: Jewish Concepts of God in Antiquity: Peter Schäfer (Author), Allison Brown (Translator))

The Gospel of Luke

Luke.1

[1] Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
[2] Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
[3] It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
John.1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Philo:

This is the book of the creation of heaven and earth, when it came into being” (LXX Gen 2:4).31 This refers to the perfect Logos, which moves according to the number seven and is the beginning of the creation both of the mind ordering itself according to the Ideas and of mental sense perception, if it is possible to say so, which also orders itself according to the Ideas. (All. 1.19–20)

Luke’s gospel contains a number of contradictions. It’s birth narrative is set in 6 c.e (Quirinius) yet the story narrative goes on to have its Jesus figure around 30 years of age in the 15th year of Tiberius in 28/29 c.e. It has it’s John the Baptist figure born under Herod - yet goes on to say that it’s Jesus figure is just 3 months younger than John, hence also born under Herod. Scholars have debated the Luke problems: Attempting to harmonize Luke with Matthew, scholars have attempted to have Quirinius in Syria earlier than 6 c.e. Attempts have been made to date the death of Herod to 1 b.c. - applying Luke’s about 30 years of age back from the 15th year of Tiberius.

Taking Luke’s opening words as an indication of what he is doing - his gospel is an attempt to recap, to remind his readers of earlier Jesus/Pilate/Tiberius stories.

From the beginning, says Luke, ..’’from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;’’. In the beginning says John - ‘…..the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory,’’). Philo: ‘’This refers to the perfect Logos, which moves according to the number seven and is the beginning of the creation..’’

From the beginning - suggests that the Lukan writer is presenting a recap, a recalling of the Jesus/Pilate/Tiberius stories that preceded his own story:

1) The gospel of John is being referenced in the introduction regarding the eyewitnesses of the ‘word’.
2) The John the Baptist figure was born in the time of Herod. The Jesus figure is 3 months younger. Indicating both figures born in the time of King Herod. An early birth narrative and a later birth narrative. The pregnancy involving Elizabeth and Mary being the link between the early and the late birth narratives that were set in the time of King Herod. The 28/25 birth narrative of Slavonic Josephus and the second birth narrative later in the time of Herod. Matthew’s addition of its Jesus figure being a young child in the time of Archelaus.
3) The Lukan birth narrative is placed around 6 c.e., in the time of Quirinius (6 c.e. to 12 c.e. governor of Syria). It is a birth narrative that takes Luke’s chronology, his use of the number 7, back 70 years to 63 b.c. - and the time of Pompey and the Hasmoneans.
4) The 15th year of Tiberius is a reference to the gospel attributed to Marcion. Luke’s addition to the list of rulers, Lysanias of Abilene, indicates that Luke is linking that time period to 40 b.c. - 70 years back from around 30 c.e. Lysanias had close family ties to the Hasmoneans.
5) Luke’s states that: ‘Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel:’’. The ‘one to redeem Israel’ is found in the wonder doer story now in Slavonic Josephus - and, seemingly, in the gospel attributed to Marcion: ‘ But we supposed him to be the ransomer of Israel’’

Luke’s gospel not only does a recap of the previous Jesus/Pilate/Tiberius stories - it indicates that these stories have a historical relevance to the history of 63 b.c. and 40 b.c. In other words; Luke not only acknowledges the work of earlier writers of the Jesus and Pilate stories he also links the relevance of these stories to Hasmonean history.

The gospel of Mark

This gospel contains no birth or crucifixion dating. It’s setting is the same. It’s Jesus figure is crucified under Pilate in the time of Tiberius. (14 – 37 c.e. ) Apart from that context this gospel does not add anything to the silver thread suggested by Philo. i.e. the application of the number 7 to the years between 14 and 37 c.e. This gospel is nothing more than a pocket gospel; a gospel designed for a quick look, a basic summary of what has gone before. Designed in part to give no problems re birth or crucifixion narratives, no age for its Jesus figure; a please everyone gospel for those who are content with the basic Jesus and Pilate story. Handy of course for the mission to the gentiles.

A Number 7 gospel template

The material outlined above suggests that six gospels have followed the template set down by Philo for the Logos/Word. They have utilized the number seven in their design framework for their Jesus and Pilate stories. The seventh gospel, that of Mark, has not utilized the number seven in any specific dating. However, it is nevertheless indebted to the earlier gospels for its Jesus and Pilate story. - thereby acknowledging the place the number seven has played in those earlier Jesus and Pilate stories.

The gospel order:

1. The gospel of John
2. The nativity story now found in the Slavonic Josephus.
3. The crucifixion story, re Eusebius, found in the Acts of Pilate.
4. The gospel of Matthew.
5. The gospel attributed to Marcoin.
6. The gospel of Luke.
7. The gospel of Mark.

This is the order of Jesus and Pilate stories arrived at by following the seven years movement cycle that Philo attributes to the Logos/Word.

Josephus and Antiquities.

The connection between the Lukan writer and Josephus has often been remarked on. Luke’s Emmaus road story being viewed as indication of a connection to the Josephan TF. However, Luke does not need Josephus for this story about disciples, that they had ‘’trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel'’. This is part of the Slavonic Josephus wonder doer story: ‘’….they urged him that he should enter the city and cut down the Roman soldiers and Pilate and rule over us’’.

In the past I’ve often thought that without Antiquities the Lukan writer could not have his 6 c.e. (Quirinius) birth narrative - a narrative that requires a late date in the time of Tiberius for a crucifixion story. In other words, the thought was that, by making the dating of Pilate ambiguous, Josephus, in Antiquities, had enabled the Lukan writer to move away from the 7th year of Tiberius, Acts of Pilate, crucifixion story of 21 c.e. The dating of Pilate within a context of around 18/19 c.e. is now considered by some Josephan scholars as the date Pilate arrived in Judaea - a date that allows the Acts of Pilate story some support.

However, now, after considering the role of Philo regarding how the number 7 is involved in the movement of the Logos - and therefore, that the gospel of John’s ‘not yet 50 years’, can be applied to various gospel nativity and crucifixion stories within the 23 years of Tiberius, a different perspective is possible. The applications of John’s ‘not yet 50 years’ to these various gospel stories had no need to wait until Antiquities (94/95 c.e.) to place, to date, their Jesus stories under Pilate and Tiberius. The role of Josephus, in Antiquities, is therefore, not one of enabling the Lukan writer, but one of supporting, rubber stamping, Luke and all the previous gospel stories with his ambiguous dating of Pilate.

(The ambiguity regarding the dating of Pilate in Antiquities: The TF context is 19 c.e. and Pilate arriving in Judaea in 26 c.e. - a 7 years period. A 7 year period in which Acts of Pilate dates it’s crucifixion story, 21 c.e. One way to view the 3 year difference between 19 c.e and 21 c.e is to consider Daniel’s final 7 years (his 69th week) - the anointed one is cut off in the middle of the week. Interestingly, the gospel of John has it’s 3 year ministry prior to it’s crucifixion under Pilate crucifixion story. The one Passover of the other gospels - a 1 year ministry x 7. (Daniel and his final week of years).

Philo and Josephus

Both Philo and Josephus have, in their various ways, shown support for the gospel Jesus and Pilate story with their dating Pilate to the time of Tiberius. As can be observed from the above material, all six gospel stories - John, Slavonic Josephus, Acts of Pilate, Matthew, Marcoin, Luke - can all be viewed as being written prior to Antiquities in 94/95 c.e. Josephus provided the rubber stamp - supporting all six gospel stories to be dated during the 23 years of Tiberius. The gospel of Mark - the 7th gospel - has no dating structure re nativity or crucifixion. It most probably followed Luke. The Jesus story had been finalized with Luke’s recap or summing up gospel. Mark, having all the six Jesus stories before him was able to condense them all to a simple pocket gospel, a no offence gospel not standing on anyone’s sensitive toes.

It would be doubtful that Philo and Josephus worked on their own. More likely, as Thomas Brodie has suggested, a school or circle of writers would surround them. Scribes and editors, redactors and translators - the seven Jesus and Pilate gospels required a coordinated effort to keep the series updated with movements of that illusive number seven.

In conclusion: What is the point of it all ?


Philo ‘’…the perfect Logos, which moves according to the number seven and is the beginning of the creation both of the mind ordering itself according to the Ideas and of mental sense perception, if it is possible to say so, which also orders itself according to the Ideas’’. For John - ‘ ..the Word became flesh and dwelt among us’’. Both descriptions relate to human intellectual capacity. The power to create not only ideas in our minds but to transform these ideas into ‘flesh’, to transform our ideas into concrete, historical, reality. In other words - intellectual evolution provides the power that can transform our physical, material, environment. There is no need to interpret Philo or John as referencing some cosmic spirit, some extra-terrestrial, taking on flesh and walking among us. Far better to credit Philo and those early gospel writers with an intellectual insight that may have been well in advance of a popular belief in celestial beings. In out modern age of intellectual progress there is not need to read the gospel Jesus and Pilate stories as being the stories of a historical Jesus of Nazareth. To do so is to discredit the work of those Jewish writers; writers who transformed their physical defeat at the hands of Rome into a victory for the human spirit.

If this is the fundamental point being made by Philo and John, what to make of Luke’s gospel with its linking his chronology to historical dates re Hasmonean history? Basically, we don’t just live in our minds. To have value our ideas need to demonstrate their value within our physical reality. Likewise, our physical reality, our place within a historical context, contributes to pushing along, as it were, our thinking. We see sickness and evil - we think about how to deal with them. The Hasmoneans, since 63 b.c. lived under Roman occupation. Their kingdom was lost (albeit for 3 short years under Antigonus). The power of Rome could not be overcome. A spiritual, a heavenly, an intellectual philosophical kingdom could be a road forward. For the Lukan writer that road was taken - as he traces back his storyline to Hasmonean history.

Eventually, of course, Rome crumpled, and the Jesus spiritual kingdom was victorious. However, the inherent danger in the Jesus and Pilate story was that it’s Philo based philosophy would be converted into a social morality via reading the Jesus story literally rather than philosophically. The number seven was, albeit metaphorically, captured by the ‘church fathers’ - resulting in their historical Jesus figure continually walking the sands of Roman Palestine. By so doing, the ‘church fathers’ have been hoist upon their own petard. Ideas can’t be captured - their inherent nature might lie low for a while but eventually old ideas have to give way to the new. The number 7 - the movement of the Logos - continues to force intellectual change.

That I would suggest is the point of the gospel Jesus and Pilate story. The life, death and renewal of ideas. Or to put it in more gospel ‘speak’…..birth, crucifixion and resurrection of the Word. A philosophical story that drew upon the lived experience of Hasmonean history during Roman occupation of Judea. A spiritual messiah, an intellectual or philosophical messiah, a non-Jewish messiah that was additional to not a rejection of either ethnicity nor borders. Without Law there is no notion of Freedom.

===================================
lclapshaw
Posts: 777
Joined: Sun May 16, 2021 10:01 am

Re: Philo, Pilate, Tiberius and the Gospel of John

Post by lclapshaw »

Very nice Mary! Lots of food for thought. 😎

Hey, have you come across this? viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10382&sid=5347f8803 ... d35cc7880a

Even though you don't think that there is a historical Paul I wonder what you would find as far as a proto or urpaul. 12 days left. 🙂
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maryhelena
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Location: England

Re: Philo, Pilate, Tiberius and the Gospel of John

Post by maryhelena »

lclapshaw wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 1:03 pm Very nice Mary! Lots of food for thought. 😎

Hey, have you come across this? viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10382&sid=5347f8803 ... d35cc7880a

Even though you don't think that there is a historical Paul I wonder what you would find as far as a proto or urpaul. 12 days left. 🙂
Yep, I noticed your thread and proposed experiment. All very interesting..... but way above my pay grade. I'll keep a look out for the results though.
lclapshaw
Posts: 777
Joined: Sun May 16, 2021 10:01 am

Re: Philo, Pilate, Tiberius and the Gospel of John

Post by lclapshaw »

maryhelena wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 1:18 pm
lclapshaw wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 1:03 pm Very nice Mary! Lots of food for thought. 😎

Hey, have you come across this? viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10382&sid=5347f8803 ... d35cc7880a

Even though you don't think that there is a historical Paul I wonder what you would find as far as a proto or urpaul. 12 days left. 🙂
Yep, I noticed your thread and proposed experiment. All very interesting..... but way above my pay grade. I'll keep a look out for the results though.
I doubt that! Please do attend! 🙂
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MrMacSon
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Re: Philo, Pilate, Tiberius and the Gospel of John

Post by MrMacSon »

maryhelena wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 7:27 am
Philo’s Logos story.


‘’Genesis 2:4 (LXX) provides Philo with further motifs to discuss the role of the Logos: “This is the book of the creation of heaven and earth, when it came into being” (LXX Gen 2:4).31 This refers to the perfect Logos, which moves according to the number seven and is the beginning of the creation both of the mind ordering itself according to the Ideas and of mental sense perception, if it is possible to say so, which also orders itself according to the Ideas. [Moses] calls “book” the divine Logos, in which are inscribed and engraved the structures of other things. In order that you may not suppose that the deity creates something according to definite periods of time, but may understand that the creation is beyond human perception, definition, and comprehension, he adds “when it came into being,” not defining time by a concrete figure. (All. 1.19–20)

Philo explores here the multiple meanings of the word “Logos,” which range from “word” and “book” to “rationality.” He identifies the biblical motif of a book as a reference to a superior Logos, which provides a rational structure to the world and is connected to the Platonic Ideas. While the latter are taken for granted, Philo self-consciously offers new ideas about the Logos. He is highly aware of the fact that his readers may be surprised, wondering himself whether “it is possible to say so.” The Logos is described in terms of the Pythagorean theory of numbers and then credited with a special role in the creation. Philo regards it as “the beginning” or source of the creation, suggesting an ideal creation that is not governed by such material qualities as time. Relying on Platonic and Pythagorean notions, Philo introduces radically new conceptions. Within the Platonic tradition he argues for the first time that the Ideas are not eternal but have been created by God. Within the Jewish tradition he is the first to suggest that the creation of the world has been anticipated by an ideal creation brought about by the Logos.
……..
For him it is clear that God must have initiated the creation of the Ideas via the Logos. “By his own supremely manifest and far-shining Logos,” he explains, “God creates both the Idea of the mind, which he [Moses] symbolically calls ‘heaven,’ and the Idea of sense perception, which he figuratively calls ‘earth’” (All. 1.21).

Niehoff, Maren R. Philo of Alexandria: An Intellectual Biography (The Anchor Yale Bible Reference Library) (pp.219-20). Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.

Philo’a story utilizes the number 7 in regard to the movement of the Logos. John’s gospel has the Jews saying its Jesus figure is ‘not yet 50’. John’s 49 year time period is undetermined.[/box]

fwiw, From Philo's Legum Allegoria / Allegorical Interpretation of Genesis 2, 3; book 1


VIII. [19] “This book is that of the origin of heaven and earth, when it came into being” (LXX Gen. 2:4). (That is to say): “This perfect 'Reason',a moving in accord with the number seven, is the primal origin both of mind ordering itself after the original patterns, and of sense-perception in the domain of mindb (if the expression is permissible) ordering itself after those originals”. “Book” is Moses’ name for the 'Reason' [Logos] of God, in which have been inscribed and engraved the formation of all else. [20] But that you may not suppose that the Deity makes anything in definite periods of time, but may know that to mortal kind the process of creation is unobserved, undescribed, incomprehensible, he adds, “When it came into being,” not defining “when” by a determining limit, for the things that come into being under the hand of the First Cause come into being with no determining limit. There is an end, then, of the notion that the universe came into being in six days.
  1. Philo can identify the Book with Reason, since λόγος can mean Reason as well as Word
  2. “sense-perception” has its function in the material sphere. It cannot strictly be spoken of as acting in the domain of mind or pure intellect.
IX. [21] “In the day in which God made the heaven and the earth and every green thing of the field before it appeared upon the earth and all grass of the field before it sprang up; for God had not sent rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the earth” (Gen. 2:4, 5). Above he has called this day a book, for he delineates the creation of heaven and earth as wrought in both: for, by His own supremely manifest and far-shining 'Reason', God makes both of them, both the original of the mind, which in symbolic language he calls “heaven,” and the original of sense-perception, to which by a figure he gave the name of “earth.”

Philo, trans. F. H. Colson, G. H. Whitaker, and J. W. Earp, vol. 1, The Loeb Classical Library (London; England; Cambridge, MA: William Heinemann Ltd; Harvard University Press, 1929–1962), 157–159.





MrMacSon wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:39 pm
fwiw, From Philo's Legum Allegoria / Allegorical Interpretation of Genesis 2, 3; book 1


VIII. [19] “This book is that of the origin of heaven and earth, when it came into being” (LXX Gen. 2:4). (That is to say): “This perfect 'Reason',a moving in accord with the number seven, is the primal origin both {1} of mind ordering itself after the original patterns, and {2} of sense-perception in the domain of mindb (if the expression is permissible) ordering itself after those originals”...
  1. Philo can identify the Book with Reason, since λόγος can mean Reason as well as Word
  2. “sense-perception” has its function in the material sphere. It cannot strictly be spoken of as acting in the domain of mind or pure intellect.

b I think that explanation for b is contradictory - saying "cannot strictly be spoken of as acting in the domain of mind" when that is what it says - so the passage is not as good as the version of Niehoff:

maryhelena wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 7:27 am
Philo’s Logos story.


‘‘Genesis 2:4 (LXX) provides Philo with further motifs to discuss the role of the Logos: This is the book of the creation of heaven and earth, when it came into being” (LXX Gen 2:4). This refers to the perfect Logos, which moves according to the number seven and is the beginning of the creation, both {1} of the mind ordering itself according to the Ideas; and {2} of mental sense perception (if it is possible to say so) which also orders itself according to the Ideas ...

Niehoff, Maren R. Philo of Alexandria: An Intellectual Biography (The Anchor Yale Bible Reference Library) (pp. 219-20).


Last edited by MrMacSon on Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Philo, Pilate, Tiberius and the Gospel of John

Post by maryhelena »

MrMacSon wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:39 pm
maryhelena wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 7:27 am
Philo’s Logos story.


‘’Genesis 2:4 (LXX) provides Philo with further motifs to discuss the role of the Logos: “This is the book of the creation of heaven and earth, when it came into being” (LXX Gen 2:4).31 This refers to the perfect Logos, which moves according to the number seven and is the beginning of the creation both of the mind ordering itself according to the Ideas and of mental sense perception, if it is possible to say so, which also orders itself according to the Ideas. [Moses] calls “book” the divine Logos, in which are inscribed and engraved the structures of other things. In order that you may not suppose that the deity creates something according to definite periods of time, but may understand that the creation is beyond human perception, definition, and comprehension, he adds “when it came into being,” not defining time by a concrete figure. (All. 1.19–20)

Philo explores here the multiple meanings of the word “Logos,” which range from “word” and “book” to “rationality.” He identifies the biblical motif of a book as a reference to a superior Logos, which provides a rational structure to the world and is connected to the Platonic Ideas. While the latter are taken for granted, Philo self-consciously offers new ideas about the Logos. He is highly aware of the fact that his readers may be surprised, wondering himself whether “it is possible to say so.” The Logos is described in terms of the Pythagorean theory of numbers and then credited with a special role in the creation. Philo regards it as “the beginning” or source of the creation, suggesting an ideal creation that is not governed by such material qualities as time. Relying on Platonic and Pythagorean notions, Philo introduces radically new conceptions. Within the Platonic tradition he argues for the first time that the Ideas are not eternal but have been created by God. Within the Jewish tradition he is the first to suggest that the creation of the world has been anticipated by an ideal creation brought about by the Logos.
……..
For him it is clear that God must have initiated the creation of the Ideas via the Logos. “By his own supremely manifest and far-shining Logos,” he explains, “God creates both the Idea of the mind, which he [Moses] symbolically calls ‘heaven,’ and the Idea of sense perception, which he figuratively calls ‘earth’” (All. 1.21).

Niehoff, Maren R. Philo of Alexandria: An Intellectual Biography (The Anchor Yale Bible Reference Library) (pp.219-20). Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.

Philo’a story utilizes the number 7 in regard to the movement of the Logos. John’s gospel has the Jews saying its Jesus figure is ‘not yet 50’. John’s 49 year time period is undetermined.[/box]

fwiw, From Philo's Legum Allegoria / Allegorical Interpretation of Genesis 2, 3; book 1


VIII. [19] “This book is that of the origin of heaven and earth, when it came into being” (LXX Gen. 2:4). (That is to say): “This perfect 'Reason',a moving in accord with the number seven, is the primal origin both of mind ordering itself after the original patterns, and of sense-perception in the domain of mindb (if the expression is permissible) ordering itself after those originals”. “Book” is Moses’ name for the 'Reason' [Logos] of God, in which have been inscribed and engraved the formation of all else. [20] But that you may not suppose that the Deity makes anything in definite periods of time, but may know that to mortal kind the process of creation is unobserved, undescribed, incomprehensible, he adds, “When it came into being,” not defining “when” by a determining limit, for the things that come into being under the hand of the First Cause come into being with no determining limit. There is an end, then, of the notion that the universe came into being in six days.
  1. Philo can identify the Book with Reason, since λόγος can mean Reason as well as Word
  2. “sense-perception” has its function in the material sphere. It cannot strictly be spoken of as acting in the domain of mind or pure intellect.
IX. [21] “In the day in which God made the heaven and the earth and every green thing of the field before it appeared upon the earth and all grass of the field before it sprang up; for God had not sent rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the earth” (Gen. 2:4, 5). Above he has called this day a book, for he delineates the creation of heaven and earth as wrought in both: for, by His own supremely manifest and far-shining 'Reason', God makes both of them, both the original of the mind, which in symbolic language he calls “heaven,” and the original of sense-perception, to which by a figure he gave the name of “earth.”

Philo, trans. F. H. Colson, G. H. Whitaker, and J. W. Earp, vol. 1, The Loeb Classical Library (London; England; Cambridge, MA: William Heinemann Ltd; Harvard University Press, 1929–1962), 157–159.





MrMacSon wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:39 pm
fwiw, From Philo's Legum Allegoria / Allegorical Interpretation of Genesis 2, 3; book 1


VIII. [19] “This book is that of the origin of heaven and earth, when it came into being” (LXX Gen. 2:4). (That is to say): “This perfect 'Reason',a moving in accord with the number seven, is the primal origin both {1} of mind ordering itself after the original patterns, and {2} of sense-perception in the domain of mindb (if the expression is permissible) ordering itself after those originals”...
  1. Philo can identify the Book with Reason, since λόγος can mean Reason as well as Word
  2. “sense-perception” has its function in the material sphere. It cannot strictly be spoken of as acting in the domain of mind or pure intellect.

b I think that explanation for b is contradictory - saying "cannot strictly be spoken of as acting in the domain of mind" when that is what it says - so the passage is not as good as the version of Niehoff:

maryhelena wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 7:27 am
Philo’s Logos story.


‘‘Genesis 2:4 (LXX) provides Philo with further motifs to discuss the role of the Logos: This is the book of the creation of heaven and earth, when it came into being” (LXX Gen 2:4). This refers to the perfect Logos, which moves according to the number seven and is the beginning of the creation: both {1} of the mind ordering itself according to the Ideas; {2} and of mental sense perception (if it is possible to say so) which also orders itself according to the Ideas ...

Niehoff, Maren R. Philo of Alexandria: An Intellectual Biography (The Anchor Yale Bible Reference Library) (pp. 219-20).


Maren Niehoff:

All translations are my own unless otherwise stated.

Niehoff, Maren R.. Philo of Alexandria: An Intellectual Biography (The Anchor Yale Bible Reference Library) (p. 251). Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.

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Capernaum and Marcion

Post by maryhelena »

While both the gospel attributed to Marcion and the gospel of Luke make reference to the 15th year of Tiberius, Marcion's gospel has his Jesus coming down to Capernaum in that year. The gospel of Matthew says of Jesus: Leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in Capernaum, (Matthew 4:13)

3. 1 In the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, when
Pilate was governing Judea, 4 31 Jesus came down to
Capharnaum, a city of Galilee.

The First New Testament: Marcion's Scriptural Canon:
Jason D. BeDuhn

Is there anything special about Capernaum? Josephus seems to think so:

8. The country also that lies over against this lake hath the same name of Gennesareth; its nature is wonderful as well as its beauty; its soil is so fruitful that all sorts of trees can grow upon it, and the inhabitants accordingly plant all sorts of trees there; for the temper of the air is so well mixed that it agrees very well with those several sorts, particularly walnuts, which require the coldest air, flourish there in vast plenty; there are palm trees also, which grow best in hot air; fig trees also and olives grow near them, which yet require an air that is more temperate. One may call this place the ambition of nature, where it forces those plants that are naturally enemies to one another to agree together: it is a happy contention of the seasons, as if every one of them laid claim to this country; for it not only nourishes different sorts of autumnal fruit beyond men’s expectation, but preserves them a great while; it supplies men with the principal fruits, with grapes and figs, continually, during ten months of the year, (11) and the rest of the fruits as they become ripe together through the whole year: for besides the good temperature of the air, it is also watered from a most fertile fountain. The people of the country call it Capharnaum. Some have thought it to be a vein of the Nile, because it produces the Coracin fish as well as that lake does which is near to Alexandria. The length of this country extends itself along the banks of this lake that bears the same name, for thirty furlongs, and is in breadth twenty, And this is the nature of that place.

Josephus: War book 3 ch.10

With such talk of water and fountains and wonderful beauty in nature, soil that is fruitful and palm trees and fig and olive trees - this place is the ambition of nature - plants that are natural enemies agree together, a happy contention of the seasons, supplies fruit beyond men’s expectation...Are we not seeing here a vision of Camelot, of Arcadia?

Taking Josephus at his word, that he was not unfamiliar with the prophets etc and had visions and could interpreted them - is he not here dealing with an abstract ideal rather than the geography of the region?

Years later Josephus has a story about falling off his horse and gets taken to Capernaum.

For the horse on which I rode, and upon whose back I fought, fell into a quagmire; and threw me on the ground. And I was bruised on my wrist, and carried into a village, named Cepharnome.25 or Capernaum. When my soldiers heard of this, they were afraid I had been worse hurt than I was; and so they did not go on with their pursuit any farther: but returned in very great concern for me. I therefore sent for the physicians: and while I was under their hand, I continued feaverish that day: and, as the physicians directed, I was that night removed to Taricheæ.

Josephus: Life

Capernaum a place of healing, a place that is the ambition of nature. Is this what the author of the gospel attributed to Marcion had in mind when having Jesus descent to this earthly paradise ?

Maybe this Josephan vision of Arcadia, published in War around 73/74 c.e. might have inspired the writer of Marcion's gospel to have his Jesus come down to Capernaum ? This might place Marcoin's gospel soon after Josephus' War. That years later this gospel fell into the hands of Marcion, or the Marcionites, would indicate it probably had a considerable period of time before the Lukan writer wrote the recap of previous gospels. Yep, gospel stories about Jesus, Pilate and Tiberius developed over time. Updates are not rejection of older versions of the story. Indicating, of course, that the gospel Jesus is a literary figure not a flesh and blood historical figure. Unfortunately, NT scholars still use a historical Jesus bias when confronted with Marcion.

As noted in the OP, the writer of Marcion's gospel, in placing his Jesus story in the 15th year of Tiberius, a year that is 7 years from the end of the rule of Tiberius in 37 c.e., is concerned, interested, in numbers (as was Philo). In other words; symbolism or philosophical ideals. Perhaps, Capernaum is not simply a place in Galilee but represents an ideal vision of earthly society.

Capernaum

Toponymy

Kfar Naḥum, the original name of the town, means "village of comfort" in Hebrew, and apparently there is no connection with the prophet named Nahum. In the writings of Josephus, the name is rendered in Koine Greek as Kαφαρναούμ (Kapharnaoúm)[6] and Κεφαρνωκόν (Kepharnōkón);[7] the New Testament uses Kapharnaoúm in some manuscripts, and Kαπερναούμ (Kapernaoúm) in others. In the Midrash Rabba (Ecclesiastes Rabba 7:47) the name appears in its Hebrew form, Kǝfar Naḥūm (Hebrew: כפר נחום). In Arabic, it is also called Talḥūm, and it is assumed that this refers to the ruin (tall) of Ḥūm (perhaps an abbreviated form of Nāḥūm).[6]

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Re: Philo, Pilate, Tiberius and the Gospel of John

Post by maryhelena »

UPDATE Repost from - viewtopic.php?p=155997#p155997

If it's the OT god you are looking for in the Marconite gospel, then, methinks, you are looking in the wrong place. The gospel attributed to Marcion is not a gospel designed to highlight the OT god - a god generally viewed as being a god of 'evil', a god of negative dualism. 'Chosen people' clearly a reflection of that god's negativity. Arguments about the nature of god - and in particular the OT god - were, seemingly, of interest to Marcion. That he was in possession of an anti-thesis is evidence of that. As old as the hills one could say - what is god, what is the nature of god. To think these questions were not of interest - and of considerable concern - to the writers of the NT would be inexcusable. Yes, of course, that debate is ongoing - and perhaps never to be resolved. Dawkins had his own take on the OT god.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Perhaps one way to look at the gospel problem - i.e. in what order were these books composed - is to consider numbers used in their storytelling. Yes, placing all the Greek words into a computer program will most likely demonstrate how many voices are involved, how many hands played their part in writing the gospel stories. Maybe some words are from an earlier time than a later time. Perhaps all the gospels have had additions and subtractions. Perhaps it's all one big mix up, a giant puzzle of who did what where and when. I don't know Greek. What I do know is that the gospel story has a structure, a structure using a specific template - variations on a theme of Daniel ch.9. I think once the numbers are followed that a pattern can emerge as to which order the gospel story should be read.

Where to find the OT god of evil, of negative dualism if not in Marcion's gospel - you'll find him loud and clear in the gospel of Matthew.

II: 21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the deeds of power done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, on the day of judgment it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? No, you will be brought down to Hades. For if the deeds of power done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I tell you that on the day of judgment it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom than for you.


25: 31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.'

37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?' 40 And the king will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.' 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Jesus is either a schizophrenic or a composite literary figure. A composite literary figure that can not only represent more than one historical figure - but also can reflect both the OT evil god and the NT god who wants us all to turn the other cheek and to love our enemies. Perhaps, it's this tension, in all of us, that allows the gospels of John and the gospel attributed to Marcion, to concentrate, highlight, the 'new' god of positive dualism. Leaving the gospel of Matthew to retain a place for the OT god of 'evil'.

Below is a chart to demonstrate how I think the gospels have managed to retain a role for the 'evil' god of the OT while giving preferential treatment to the NT god of love your enemies. The Pauline story, with its celestial, outer-space, crucifixion story, is allowing the OT evil god prominence within a spiritual/philosophical context.

Gospel: Theology/Philosophy focusGospel: history/dating structure focus
Gospel of John: Jesus not yet 50 years old. Use of Daniel ch.9 and it's 70 weeks of years. 7 x 7 = 49 years. Utilizing this numbers formula as a time frame in which to set out the gospel story. Time of Pilate. Suggesting a birth narrative early in the rule of Herod. → →→Gospel of Matthew version One. Slavonic Josephus: Birth narrative prior to the 15th year of Herod, 25 b.c. 490 years back to 515 b.c. and temple rededicating. Acts of Pilate, crucifixion in the 7th year of Tiberius, 21 c.e.
Gospel attributed to Marcion. 15th year of Tiberius, 29/30 c.e. 7 years from 7th year of Tiberius, 21/22 c.e. Pilate governor of Judea. 70 years back to 40 b.c. and Herod. → →→Gospel of Matthew version Two. Archelaus added; Jesus a young child on return from Egypt. Suggestion a birth narrative late in the time of Herod. Archelaus 4 b.c. to 6 c.e. Gospel Jesus becomes a younger man in the 15th year of Tiberius.
Gospel of Luke. 15th year of Tiberius back to Lysanias of Abilene in 40 b.c. Removal of Archelaus and arrival of Quirinius census. Birth narrative 6 c.e. 70 years back to 63 b.c. Jesus figure about 30 years old in 15th year of Tiberius. Requiring a second birth narrative in 1 b.c. ..Two birth narratives allowing for a crucifixion date in 30 c.e. or 36/37 c.e. Tiberius 14 - 37 c.e. Gospel Jesus story ends 77 years after 40 b.c.
Gospel of Mark. No useful historical markers, aside from Pilate. Perhaps designed for public reading or play. A synopsis or abstract designed to be all things to all people. All well and good - but the gospel story is bigger, and more troublesome, when read from the beginning.

==============
Added later:

The above chart has been updated at this link:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10853

Marcion and the Jesus and Pilate story.
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