My presentation on Hist. Valley re Mark and Paul

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Sinouhe
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Re: My presentation on Hist. Valley re Mark and Paul

Post by Sinouhe »

mlinssen wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:33 am
There are so many bullshit stories invented by people who fail to prove their theory right, and then they invent "a third independent source" when the direction of dependence doesn't suit them.
That’s exactly what i think about the priority of the gospel of Marcion and/or Thomas :roll:
Well, looking at gospels and letters, those could actually from the very first case of an independent source: there is NOTHING connecting either of these two, Mark and Paul: zilch, nada, rien, nichts - NEVER. Intentional? How can it not be intentional, when two kids from the same class who sit in the same classroom produce a similar story that overlap at core points, yet don't show verbatim agreement? IF they are, that is...
Are you sure ?
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mlinssen
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Re: My presentation on Hist. Valley re Mark and Paul

Post by mlinssen »

Sinouhe wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:49 am
mlinssen wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:33 am
There are so many bullshit stories invented by people who fail to prove their theory right, and then they invent "a third independent source" when the direction of dependence doesn't suit them.
That’s exactly what i think about the priority of the gospel of Marcion and/or Thomas :roll:
Well, looking at gospels and letters, those could actually from the very first case of an independent source: there is NOTHING connecting either of these two, Mark and Paul: zilch, nada, rien, nichts - NEVER. Intentional? How can it not be intentional, when two kids from the same class who sit in the same classroom produce a similar story that overlap at core points, yet don't show verbatim agreement? IF they are, that is...
Are you sure ?
Yes, and because you fail to actually demonstrate any of it, you stick to "thinking".

Go on, show me verbatim agreement between Mark and Paul. Two words in a row would be really thrilling
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Sinouhe
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Re: My presentation on Hist. Valley re Mark and Paul

Post by Sinouhe »

mlinssen wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:53 am
Yes, and because you fail to actually demonstrate any of it, you stick to "thinking".

Go on, show me verbatim agreement between Mark and Paul. Two words in a row would be really thrilling

Ooh... You obviously haven't read any books on the subject, have you? I invite you to do so.
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But obviously you won't because you are dogmatic and only interested in what will reinforce your little Thomas/Marcion theory.

I have several tables available, I'll post some examples later. Even if my motivation to interact with someone who spends his life here trying to boost his ego is close to zero.
robert j
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Re: My presentation on Hist. Valley re Mark and Paul

Post by robert j »

Sinouhe wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:08 am
mlinssen wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:53 am ...

... someone who spends his life here trying to boost his ego ...
Along with promoting his deep-seated anti-Jewish sentiments.
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Sinouhe
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Re: My presentation on Hist. Valley re Mark and Paul

Post by Sinouhe »

mlinssen wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:53 am Go on, show me verbatim agreement between Mark and Paul. Two words in a row would be really thrilling
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The expression "gospel of christ" appears only in Paul and Mark 1.
It does not appear anywhere else in the new testament.

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The expression "gospel of God" appears only once in the gospels : in this verse of Mark. It appears 6 times in Paul and once in the epistle of Peter.

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The Aramaic word "abba" is used only 3 times in the whole New Testament :
  • 2 times by Paul
  • 1 time by Mark.
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Sinouhe
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Re: My presentation on Hist. Valley re Mark and Paul

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The Greek words "κερδήσω" and "ἐζημιώθη" associated together appear nowhere in the NT except this epistle of Paul and this passage in Mark's gospel.

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Same idea, same word.

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The word ἀκοινὸς (defiled) appears 6 times in Mark chapter 7 and 3 times in Romans chapter 14 :
  • Marc 7:2 : τοῦτ’ ἔστιν ἀνίπτοις, ἐσθίοντας ἄρτους ἐμέμψαντο.
  • Marc 7:5 : ἀλλὰ ἀνίπτοις χερσὶν ἐσθίουσιν τὸν ἄρτον
  • Marc 7:15 : ἐκεῖνά ἐστιν τὰ κοινοῦντα τὸν ἄνθρωπον
  • Marc 7:18 : ἄνθρωπον οὐ δύναται αὐτὸν κοινῶσαι
  • Marc 7:20 : ἐκεῖνο κοινοῖ τὸν ἄνθρωπον
  • Marc 7:23 : καὶ κοινοῖτὸν ἄνθρωπον
And the same word appears 3 times in verse 14 of Romans 14 :
  • Romain 14:14 : Οἶδα καὶ πέπεισμαι ἐν κυρίῳ Ἰησοῦ, ὅτι οὐδὲν κοινὸν δι’ αὐτοῦ εἰ μὴ τῷ λογιζομένῳ τι κοινὸν εἶναι, ἐκείνῳ κοινόν.
This term κοινὸς in this particular context of dietary law does not appear in any non-Jewish (Greek-Roman) Gentile text of the time contemporary with Mark and Paul .
And our two authors are obviously addressing Gentiles.
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Sinouhe
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Re: My presentation on Hist. Valley re Mark and Paul

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The expression "slave of all" appears only once in the whole Bible : in this epistle of Paul and in the Gospel of Mark.

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There are many other examples.
Many of the teachings of Jesus in Mark come from Paul. Therefore, the idea that Mark is a pro-Pauline gospel is neither a silly idea nor an idea rejected by scholars. In fact, it is mostly conservatives who reject this idea.
rgprice
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Re: My presentation on Hist. Valley re Mark and Paul

Post by rgprice »

Thank you Sinouhe. I haven't gone through all of these in the Greek myself. Very helpful!
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