Three great findings on Christian origins about which I can claim: "THANK YOU INTERNET"

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 13903
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Three great findings on Christian origins about which I can claim: "THANK YOU INTERNET"

Post by Giuseppe »

A little experiment of mind. If I had to save in a bottle only 3 great ideas from everything I have learned from Internet and various readings and this forum, what I would save?

Image

I would save only 3 ideas:

1) the idea that 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 can be interpreted as a crucifixion in outer space. This is true even if the passage is an interpolation, since curiously both the first proponent of the idea (the Dutch radical critic G.P. Bolland) and the last proponent of the idea (prof Arthur Droge) agree that it was not written by a historical Paul.

Dat er onder de sterren verschil van heerlijkheid is, blijkt in 1 Cor. 15: 41 'apostolische' vooronderstelling, en onmiskenbaar is de rechtstreeksche toepasselijkheid van de aangehaalde gnosis of theosophie op plaatsen als Eph. 2:2, 6:12, 1 Cor. 2:8, Col. 2:15 en 1 Tim. 3:16, die ons op de gedachte moeten brengen, dat de kruisiging des Heeren oorspronkelijk als het werk van archonten of planeetgeesten geschied is in de lucht.

(G.J. P. J. BOLLAND, De oorsprong der Grieksche wijsbegeerte, p. 79)

2) The idea that Barabbas is a caustic parody of the Marcion's Jesus Son of Father. Thanks to Couchoud/Stahl, and thanks also to Jean Magne:

Y a-t-il ironie dans le fait que les Juifs rejettent Jésus prétendu messie et réclament Jésus Barabbas, c'est-à-dire Jésus Fils du Père, que le sanhédrin a condamné comme blasphémateur? Le récit ne serait il pas plutôt la transposition d'une opposition à la messianisation, ou “christianisation”, du Seigneur Jésus, Fils de Dieu, au sein du mouvement qui plus tard, à Antioche, prendra le nom de christianisme?

(JEAN MAGNE, LA CRUCIFIXION: Polémique anti-juive et Mythe Gnostique, p. 5)

This gives also a moral teaching: the human malice is very enormous, if even the mere fruit of a caustic parody figures in a religious text! Imagine if in a thousand years a new bible will show Brian of Nazareth as opponent of the principal hero of the story!

3) the idea that the Samaritan false prophet slain by Pilate is Dositheus. This idea (argued optimally by prof Etienne Nodet, by prof Samuel Krauss and other people) would seem to be marginal and secondary, nevertheless it gives the simplest explanation in absolute terms about why the Gospel Jesus was placed just under Pilate (and not under a different ruler): because it was necessary to affirm without controversy that Jesus posed historically under Pilate as "a Prophet like Moses"", and not the Samaritan rival Dositheus, contra veritatem, pro veritate.


On pourrait évidemment penser qu'il y a eu deux messies tués sous Ponce-Pilate mais, quoique possible, le fait est peu probable et serait nouveau; il serait d'ailleurs étonnant que — de ces deux messies (Jean-Theudas et Jésus) — Josèphe ne cite que le premier avec, meme, des détails précis et vraisemblables tandis que les évangiles parlent à peine de la mort de Jean et donnent de la Passion de Jésus un récit dont les détails sont purement mythiques.

(Georges Ory, La Samarie, patrie d'un Messie..., Cahiers du Cercle Ernest Renan, 3/11, p. 16)

Signed by me today.

Giuseppe Ferri.
User avatar
Leucius Charinus
Posts: 2842
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:23 pm
Location: memoriae damnatio

Re: Three great findings on Christian origins about which I can claim: "THANK YOU INTERNET"

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Giuseppe wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:31 am A little experiment of mind. If I had to save in a bottle only 3 great ideas from everything I have learned from Internet and various readings and this forum, what I would save?

Image

I would save only 3 ideas.
An excellent armchair experiment Giuseppe.

I would save at least one idea at the moment. I stumbled over it over a year or more after engaging in my independent research into the history of early Christian origins. I had been looking for physical evidence by which I presumed I could set aside a very late 4th century hypothesis. I was getting sick of reading through the Christian interpretations of various inscriptions. Such as those which read "He Sleeps" - these were being interpreted as "early Christian". Or the Early Christian inscription of Abercius, dated 216 CE. I had honestly presumed I would find some substantial physical "early Christian" evidence before the 4th century and could therefore let the matter of the hypothesis rest for evermore. But such was not the case.

Imagine my surprise therefore, after dealing with hundreds if items of possible negative evidence (which would refute the hypothesis - See Popper et al on falsifiability), I suddenly appeared to have found some positive evidence.

"Against the Christians" - Emperor Julian

The very first independent political comment concerning the new State Religion of Christianity was formalised c.362 CE by the Emperor Julian who wrote that he thought that it was expedient that he write his convictions to all mankind. Julian's invectives 362 are re-examined in a new light. Of course these three books were burnt and all that remains is a reconstruction of a refutation made in the 5th century by the thug bishop Cyril of Alexandria.


BULL-BURNER wrote: It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind
the reasons by which I was convinced that
the fabrication of the Christians
is a fiction of men composed by wickedness.

Though it has in it nothing divine,
by making full use of that part of the soul
which loves fable and is childish and foolish,
it has induced men to believe
that the monstrous tale is truth.
http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/Julia ... laeans.htm

What did the last pagan emperor Julian actually know about the history of Christian origins? We do know that Julian was a trained philosopher and that he also wrote a satirical work of literature that outlines a relationship between Constantine and Jesus. He mentions Eusebius as being "wretched". Julian ruled 360-363 CE and the NHL and other Coptic codices are dated to c.350 CE. The earliest Greek NTC codices such as Sinaiticus and Vaticanus are "traditionally" dated to the 4th century. This date may not be correct but as almost everyone accepts it as a starting place. All this means we have an abundance of the very earliest physical manuscript remains of early Christian literature suddenly appearing in the mid 4th century.

Could Julian have been a [censored] whistle-blower?

This is the primary finding on Christian origins about which I have claimed:
"THANK YOU INTERNET"
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8600
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: Three great findings on Christian origins about which I can claim: "THANK YOU INTERNET"

Post by Peter Kirby »

In this thought experiment, I'm imagining that the internet disappears through bitrot, but print publications remain.

If so, one thing I'd like to save would be my exploration of 1 Clement:

https://peterkirby.com/a-study-in-1-clement.html

It doesn't necessarily have any grand implications, but it feels like a bit of source criticism that could inform other work. Because so much has already been said before, it's not often that I come across something that feels like it has to be published. But this seems to me like it should.

I hope to revisit it and give it a better treatment.
User avatar
mlinssen
Posts: 3431
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Three great findings on Christian origins about which I can claim: "THANK YOU INTERNET"

Post by mlinssen »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 10:31 pm In this thought experiment, I'm imagining that the internet disappears through bitrot, but print publications remain.

If so, one thing I'd like to save would be my exploration of 1 Clement:

https://peterkirby.com/a-study-in-1-clement.html

It doesn't necessarily have any grand implications, but it feels like a bit of source criticism that could inform other work. Because so much has already been said before, it's not often that I come across something that feels like it has to be published. But this seems to me like it should.

I hope to revisit it and give it a better treatment.
I DO appreciate the alliteration in the bullets!
I'll have a go at it, ta
Post Reply