- the first thread is well exemplified by 1 Corinthians 2:6-8, i.e. the idea of a celestial crucifixion in heaven, not removed at all even if you place it in the late second century, so much it doesn't fit with any idea of an earthly Jesus.
- The other thread, is well exemplified by the connection Jesus/Pilate, i.e. a connection probably caused by the memory of Dositheus, or how you would call the unnamed Samaritan false prophet killed by Pilate. Behind that connection there is an entire Mosaic Jesus sect, i.e. a sect that preached Joshua as "a Prophet like Moses".
Was a such operation possible? Its probability is identical to the probability of the transformation of a 'Prophet like Moses', as Dositheus probably posed, in a preacher of anti-demiurgism. A such transformation is unexpected insofar a pious adorer of YHWH as supreme god couldn't become an anti-demiurgist icon, contra factum that that is what happened.
We may imagine the process by which this degrading of a celestial crucifixion happened: the incipit of the Earliest Gospel.
In the 15° year of Tiberius, the Chrestos descended on Capernaum.
How was a such incipit interpreted by the Mosaic Jesus sect, when the latter heard about it?
Daniel Massé may give the solution:
Origene... dans l'Anticelse, nous revele qu'il n'y avait qu'une personne au Jourdain, le Ioannes, lequel a ete le seul temoin de la colombe et le seul auditeur de la Voix du ciel (Tu es mon Fils bien-aimé).
En somme, la scene de la colombe signifie que le mot du Plerome, I. E. O. A. l'Esprit de Dieu, le Verbe-Esprit, a élu domicile dans le corps du Crucifié de Ponce-Pilate, au Jourdain. Le Selon-Matthieu, si on veut bien y relire le recit du bapteme, n'est qu'un marivaudage assez apparent, un échange de politesse caracteristique, qui permet de reconnaitre comment la scene a été litt6érairement fabriquee, entre le Verbe Jesus, que le scribe fait venir de Galilee, on ne sait d'ou, — il y est tombé du ciel, — et le Christ baptiseur Ioannes.
En somme, la scene de la colombe signifie que le mot du Plerome, I. E. O. A. l'Esprit de Dieu, le Verbe-Esprit, a élu domicile dans le corps du Crucifié de Ponce-Pilate, au Jourdain. Le Selon-Matthieu, si on veut bien y relire le recit du bapteme, n'est qu'un marivaudage assez apparent, un échange de politesse caracteristique, qui permet de reconnaitre comment la scene a été litt6érairement fabriquee, entre le Verbe Jesus, que le scribe fait venir de Galilee, on ne sait d'ou, — il y est tombé du ciel, — et le Christ baptiseur Ioannes.
(L'énigme du Jésus-Christ, p. 56)
Probably Massé means this passage of Origen:
Contra Celsum 1,41:
Let us, then, see what he says when attacking the story of the physical appearance, as it were, of the Holy Spirit seen by the Saviour in the form of a dove. His Jew continues by saying this to him whom we confess to be our Lord Jesus: When, he says, you were bathing near John, you say that you saw what appeared to be a bird fly towards you out of the air. His Jew then asks: What trustworthy witness saw this apparition, or who heard a voice from heaven adopting you as a son of God? There is no proof except for your word and the evidence which you may produce of one of the men who were punished with you.
The Celsus's Jew doubts a priori about the word of Jesus because "Jesus" is the dove or holy spirit descending from heaven, and also the voice coming from heaven, or, assuming Marcion's proto-Luke, the spiritual entity descending from above.
Having doubted a priori about the spiritual descent of a such spirit (called by him sarcastically 'Jesus'), the Celsus's Jew continues to extend his doubt on the witness given by the only person left on the scene: John.
and the evidence which you may produce of one of the men who were punished with you
John is "one of the 3 men who were punished with you", i.e. with the spiritual entity (called sarcastically 'Jesus' by Celsus) possessing the man on the cross, who therefore could be only John the Baptist.
Hence, we would have a fusion between the deity and Dositheus/Theudas/John the Baptist, precisely at the original "baptism", with Chrestos the divine entity descending on "John".
The author of Mark, reacting against a such idea, would have made to come Jesus from Nazareth, and not more from heaven, while in the same time he would have made John as the Baptizer and not the original Baptized or Anointed one, i.e. the original human recipient possessed by the divine entity.
A trace of this original possession of John the Baptist is left paradoxically in Canonical Luke:
In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar—when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene— 2 during the high-priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the wilderness.
'the word of God' is an euphemism to allude to the divine entity, who in Marcion was Jesus himself. Hence, translating debtly, we have:
In the 15° year of Tiberius, Jesus descended on John.
Therefore corroborating the reading by the Celsus's Jew, who assumed only two witnesses:
- a divine witness, i.e. Jesus, despised sarcastically by the Celsus's Jew (as not being really divine, but human too much human)
- a human being, John, found there on the scene.