Justin Martyr's 'Dialogue of Trypho' as Rhetoric

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ABuddhist
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Re: Justin Martyr's 'Dialogue of Trypho' as Rhetoric

Post by ABuddhist »

GakuseiDon wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:43 pm
ABuddhist wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:29 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:58 pm Justin Martyr certainly had access to the Gospels and stories of eye-witnesses
That Justin had access to any of our gospels is an open question.
Well, granted it is an open question on whether he had access to "our" gospels. He had access to something like our Gospels. It doesn't change my point at all.
Ah, I misunderstood. When you used the words "the gospels" I assumed that you were referring to our standard 4 gospels.

But why are you confident that he had access to eyewitness's stories?
GakuseiDon wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:43 pm
ABuddhist wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:29 pmBecause according to the standard Historicists' views, early Christianity preserved, treasured, and used allegedly accurate narratives about Jesus in order to gain converts. Hence the claims that Paul and his audience, for example, knew about Jesus's deeds so that Paul never mentioned them.
Leaving aside the views of standard Historicists for the moment: how does Justin Martyr factor into this, in your view? Does his Dialogue reset your expectations about early Christians preserving, treasuring, and using allegedly accurate narratives about Jesus in order to gain converts?
No. It confirms my beliefs, as a historicist, that the early Christians were not doing this. Instead, they based their preachings, I think, upon miracles/ecstacy, philosophy, and Jews' scriptures. The historical Jesus was unnecessary for their efforts and had only served as a trigger for speculation and story-telling using other sources.
dbz
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Re: Justin Martyr's 'Dialogue of Trypho' as Rhetoric

Post by dbz »

ABuddhist wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:27 am What I find notable is that regardless of which meaning one assigns to the word Christ in this argument, Justin did not defend his religion's claims about Christ/Jesus through appeals to how allegedly reliable the accounts by Christians about Jesus were, but rather used miracles and the Jews' scriptures.
Also argued per "Does Justin Martyr's Dialogue With Trypho Mention Mythicsts??? ft. Dr. Richard Carrier". YouTube. Godless Engineer. 2023.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Justin Martyr's 'Dialogue of Trypho' as Rhetoric

Post by GakuseiDon »

ABuddhist wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:59 pmBut why are you confident that he had access to eyewitness's stories?
He believed he had access to eyewitness reports. He mentions the writings of the apostles many times. In one passage, he writes:

For in the memoirs which I say were drawn up by His apostles and those who followed them, [it is recorded] that His sweat fell down like drops of blood while He was praying, and saying, 'If it be possible, let this cup pass:'

The quote about "sweat dropping like drops of blood" made after "and those who followed them" is only in gLuke, one of "those that followed" the apostles. Yet Justin argues by referring to Scriptures often, and to the memoirs much less frequently.
ABuddhist wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:59 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:43 pm Leaving aside the views of standard Historicists for the moment: how does Justin Martyr factor into this, in your view? Does his Dialogue reset your expectations about early Christians preserving, treasuring, and using allegedly accurate narratives about Jesus in order to gain converts?
No. It confirms my beliefs, as a historicist, that the early Christians were not doing this. Instead, they based their preachings, I think, upon miracles/ecstacy, philosophy, and Jews' scriptures. The historical Jesus was unnecessary for their efforts and had only served as a trigger for speculation and story-telling using other sources.
:thumbup:
Giuseppe
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Re: Justin Martyr's 'Dialogue of Trypho' as Rhetoric

Post by Giuseppe »

Richard Carrier points out an interesting difference:

He says, ‘our people can perform miracles. Your people can't. Therefore our guy must be true, otherwise our things wouldn't work.’

And he says, like, ah, ‘we can cast out demons in the name of Jesus’ and not just the name of Jesus but ‘in the name of Jesus who was crucified by Pilate, whereas your guys can't expel demons except maybe sometimes you can, if you invoke Yahweh.’

Why did Justin need to specify that his Jesus was the one crucified by Pilate? Were there other Jesuses crucified, with their only fault of being crucified not by Pilate? I think that the answer is yes: Justin knew that the only difference between the Gospel Jesus and the other Jesuses (of which the Gospel Jesus is the mere amalgam) is that the former is connected with Pilate, whereas the latter with different Roman governors.
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mlinssen
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Re: Justin Martyr's 'Dialogue of Trypho' as Rhetoric

Post by mlinssen »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:14 am Richard Carrier points out an interesting difference:

He says, ‘our people can perform miracles. Your people can't. Therefore our guy must be true, otherwise our things wouldn't work.’

And he says, like, ah, ‘we can cast out demons in the name of Jesus’ and not just the name of Jesus but ‘in the name of Jesus who was crucified by Pilate, whereas your guys can't expel demons except maybe sometimes you can, if you invoke Yahweh.’

Why did Justin need to specify that his Jesus was the one crucified by Pilate? Were there other Jesuses crucified, with their only fault of being crucified not by Pilate? I think that the answer is yes: Justin knew that the only difference between the Gospel Jesus and the other Jesuses (of which the Gospel Jesus is the mere amalgam) is that the former is connected with Pilate, whereas the latter with different Roman governors.
First ask Carrier where he got his quote from, because it appears that he made it up entirely:

Trypho Chapter 30:

"For we call Him Helper and Redeemer, the power of whose name even the demons do fear; and at this day, when they are exorcised in the name of Jesus Christ, crucified under Pontius Pilate, governor of Judaea, they are overcome"

βοηθὸν γὰρ ἐκεῖνον καὶ λυτρωτὴν καλοῦμεν, οὗ καὶ τὴν τοῦ ὀνόματος ἰσχὺν καὶ τὰ δαιμόνια τρέμει, καὶ σήμερον ἐξορκιζόμενα κατὰ τοῦ ὀνόματος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, τοῦ σταυρωθέντος ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου, τοῦ γενομένου ἐπιτρόπου τῆς Ἰουδαίας, ὑποτάσσεται

Have you learned nothing Giuseppe? Always verify your sources - ALWAYS.
And especially when they derive from someone like Carrier
Giuseppe
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Re: Justin Martyr's 'Dialogue of Trypho' as Rhetoric

Post by Giuseppe »

Carrier's point still stands:

κατὰ τοῦ ὀνόματος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, τοῦ σταυρωθέντος ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου

Justin calls Pilate ἐπιτρόπος, never found in our Gospels: another clue of Justin's ignorance of our gospels, less proto-Luke (= Mcn).
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Re: Justin Martyr's 'Dialogue of Trypho' as Rhetoric

Post by mlinssen »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 1:05 am Carrier's point still stands:

κατὰ τοῦ ὀνόματος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, τοῦ σταυρωθέντος ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου

Justin calls Pilate ἐπιτρόπος, never found in our Gospels: another clue of Justin's ignorance of our gospels, less proto-Luke (= Mcn).
No it doesn't, his point is unattested and as such must be questioned before progressed

Regarding


Matt 20:8 When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them [their] wages, starting with the last [ones hired] and moving on to the first.’

Ὀψίας δὲ γενομένης λέγει ὁ κύριος τοῦ ἀμπελῶνος τῷ ἐπιτρόπῳ αὐτοῦ· κάλεσον τοὺς ἐργάτας καὶ ἀπόδος αὐτοῖς τὸν μισθὸν ἀρξάμενος ἀπὸ τῶν ἐσχάτων ἕως τῶν πρώτων.

Luke 8:3 Joanna [the] wife of Herod’s household manager Chuza, Susanna, and many others. [These women] were ministering to them out of their own means.

καὶ Ἰωάννα γυνὴ Χουζᾶ ἐπιτρόπου Ἡρώδου καὶ Σουσάννα καὶ ἕτεραι πολλαὶ αἵτινες διηκόνουν αὐτοῖς ἐκ τῶν ὑπαρχόντων αὐταῖς.

Gal 4:2 He is subject to guardians and trustees until the date set by [his] father.

ἀλλὰ ὑπὸ ἐπιτρόπους ἐστὶν καὶ οἰκονόμους ἄχρι τῆς προθεσμίας τοῦ πατρός

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https://www.stepbible.org/?q=version=BS ... NTERLEAVED

You need to be very careful Giuseppe, you can't just go around making assertions like you do without losing all your credibility very quickly. People become what they do
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Justin Martyr's 'Dialogue of Trypho' as Rhetoric

Post by GakuseiDon »

GakuseiDon wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 8:22 pmYes, I found that comment by Dr Carrier interesting. I wasn't aware of Justin using a chiastic structure. But it does explain why the main 'rebuttal' to the comment in Chapter 8 comes from Chapter 49:

Chapter 8:

But Christ--if He has indeed been born, and exists anywhere--is unknown, and does not even know Himself, and has no power until Elias come to anoint Him, and make Him manifest to all. And you, having accepted a groundless report, invent a Christ for yourselves, and for his sake are inconsiderately perishing."

vs

Chapter 49

And Trypho said, "Those who affirm him to have been a man, and to have been anointed by election, and then to have become Christ, appear to me to speak more plausibly than you who hold those opinions which you express. For we all expect that Christ will be a man[born] of men, and that Elijah when he comes will anoint him. But if this man appear to be Christ, he must certainly be known as man[born] of men; but from the circumstance that Elijah has not yet come, I infer that this man is not He[the Christ]."

The more I think of this, the more I don't understand why Carrier doesn't use his conclusion that Justin Martyr is using a chiastic structure. If A -> B -> B -> A is the structure, why wouldn't you use the second A when analysing the first A?

Trypho argues that "Christ" is a title/role that requires anointing from Elijah. Some Christians even thought that Jesus was "man of men" who became Christ by election due to his virtue, an approach which Trypho regards as plausible. "Christ as role that is anointed by Elijah" is clearly in view in Chapter 49. So why doesn't Carrier take that reading into Chapter 8 if it is part of a chiastic structure?
dbz
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Re: Justin Martyr's 'Dialogue of Trypho' as Rhetoric

Post by dbz »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:14 am Were there other Jesuses crucified, with their only fault of being crucified not by Pilate? I think that the answer is yes: Justin knew that the only difference between the Gospel Jesus and the other Jesuses (of which the Gospel Jesus is the mere amalgam) is that the former is connected with Pilate, whereas the latter with different Roman governors.
1) A Samaritan named Simon Megas may of given rise to the Simonian Cult that worshiped Simon after his death and called him Chrestus. Later some Jews may have copied the Simonian Cult with Jewish elements added. Cf. Parvus, Roger (8 March 2023). "A Simonian Origin for Christianity? -- A few more thoughts". Vridar.

2)
[Judas of Galilee] was a Jewish leader who led resistance to the census imposed for Roman tax purposes by Quirinius in Judea Province around 6 CE.
[...]
In Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus states that Judas, along with Zadok the Pharisee, founded the Zealots . . . Josephus blamed this fourth sect for the First Jewish–Roman War of 66–73. The Zealots were theocratic nationalists who preached that God alone was the ruler of Israel and urged that no taxes should be paid to Rome.
"Judas of Galilee". Wikipedia.
Cf. "Jesus and the Zealots - Christopher Lawson & Daniel Unterbrink". YouTube. History Valley. 11 February 2023.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Justin Martyr's 'Dialogue of Trypho' as Rhetoric

Post by MrMacSon »

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A table highlighting Christ, Jesus, crucified and circumcised (or uncircumcised) in the first 35 chapters of the Roberts-Donaldson English version of Dialogue with Trypho http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... rypho.html


(a table to see if any patterns might show up among the columns)


There's more mention of Jesus after chapter 30 (only 3 mentions of the name beforehand)


There's no references to memoirs of the apostles or gospels in relation to Jesus or Christ in these first 35 chapters


There's lots of appeal to the OT/LXX scriptures, especially Isaiah


nb. Trypho is the first to mention crucifixion - "a man that was crucified" - and that happens before mention of the name Jesus !!
  • and is mentioned here, in chapter 10, in relation to circumcision, but the two are not mentioned together again (in these first 35 chapters)

[/td]
chapter
Christ (?)
Jesus (?)
crucified, etc. (?)
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1-6
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Justin:
"'There existed, long before this time, certain men more ancient than all those who are esteemed philosophers, both righteous and beloved by God, who spoke by the Divine Spirit, and foretold events which would take place, and which are now taking place. They are called prophets. These alone both saw and announced the truth to men, neither reverencing nor fearing any man, not influenced by a desire for glory, but speaking those things alone which they saw and which they heard, being filled with the Holy Spirit ... they both glorified the Creator, the God and Father of all things, and proclaimed His Son, the Christ [sent] by Him ... these things cannot be perceived or understood by all, but only by the man to whom God and His Christ have imparted wisdom."
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Justin:
"... those men who are friends of Christ possessed me ...

"... if you are eagerly looking for salvation, and if you believe in God, you may--since you are not indifferent to the matter -- become acquainted with the Christ of God, and, after being initiated, live a happy life.

then Trypho:
"... better for you still to abide in the philosophy of Plato ...

"... first be circumcised, then observe what ordinances have been enacted with respect to the Sabbath, and the feasts, and the new moons of God, and...do all things which have been written in the law: and then perhaps you shall obtain mercy from God. But Christ--if He has indeed been born, and exists anywhere--is unknown, and does not even know Himself, and has no power until Elias come to anoint Him, and make Him manifest to all. And you, having accepted a groundless report, invent a Christ for yourselves, and for his sake are inconsiderately perishing."
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"For you know not what you say, but have been persuaded by teachers who do not understand the Scriptures; and you speak, like a diviner whatever comes into your mind. But if you are willing to listen to an account of Him, how we have not been deceived ..."
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Trypho!
"...you, professing to be pious, and supposing yourselves better than others, are not in any particular separated from them, and do not alter your mode of living from the nations, in that you observe no festivals or sabbaths, and do not have the rite of circumcision; and further, resting your hopes on a man that was crucified, you yet expect to obtain some good thing from God, while you do not obey His commandments. Have you not read, that soul shall be cut off from his people who shall not have been circumcised on the eighth day? And this has been ordained for strangers and for slaves equally. But you, despising this covenant rashly, reject the consequent duties, and attempt to persuade yourselves that you know God, when, however, you perform none of those things which they do who fear God."
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(a) Justin starts:
"There will be no other God, O Trypho, nor was there from eternity any other existing" (I thus addressed him), "but He who made and disposed all this universe. Nor do we think that there is one God for us, another for you, but that He alone is God who led your fathers out from Egypt with a strong hand and a high arm. Nor have we trusted in any other (for there is no other), but in Him in whom you also have trusted, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob ..."

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through the name of Him who was crucified, Jesus Christ, and abide by their confession even unto death
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we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ, as shall be demonstrated while we proceed."
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(c)
"... leaving their idols and other unrighteousness, through the name of Him who was crucified, Jesus Christ, and abide by their confession even unto death, and maintain piety. Moreover, by the works and by the attendant miracles, it is possible for all to understand that He is the new law, and the new covenant, and the expectation of those who out of every people wait for the good things of God. For the true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ, as shall be demonstrated while we proceed."
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"... If, therefore, God proclaimed a new covenant which was to be instituted, and this for a light of the nations, and we see and are persuaded that men approach God... and we see and are persuaded that men approach God, leaving their idols and other unrighteousness, through the name of Him who was crucified, Jesus Christ, and abide by their confession even unto death, and maintain piety
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and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ, as shall be demonstrated while we proceed."
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"For Isaiah did not send you to a bath, there to wash away murder and other sins, which not even all the water of the sea were sufficient to purge; but, as might have been expected, this was that saving bath of the olden time which followed s those who repented, and who no longer were purified by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of an heifer, or by the offerings of fine flour, but by faith through the blood of Christ, and through His death, who died for this very reason, as Isaiah himself said, when he spake thus:
14
"Of these and such like words written by the prophets, O Trypho," said Justin, "some have reference to the first advent of Christ, in which He is preached as inglorious, obscure, and of mortal appearance: but others had reference to His second advent, when He shall appear in glory and above the clouds; and your nation shall see and know Him whom they have pierced, as Hosea, one of the twelve prophets, and Daniel, foretold."
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"Accordingly, these things have happened to you in fairness and justice, for you have slain the Just One, and His prophets before Him; and now you reject those who hope in Him, and in Him who sent Him--God the Almighty and Maker of all things--cursing in your synagogues those that believe on Christ. For you have not the power to lay hands upon us, on account of those who now have the mastery. But as often as you could, you did so."
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"For other nations have not inflicted on us and on Christ this wrong to such an extent as you have, who in very deed are the authors of the wicked prejudice against the Just One, and us who hold by Him. For after that you had crucified Him, the only blameless and righteous Man,-- through whose swipes those who approach the Father by Him are healed,--when you knew that He had risen from the dead and ascended to heaven, as the prophets foretold He would, you not only did not repent of the wickedness which you had committed, but at that time you selected and sent out from Jerusalem chosen men through all the land to tell that the godless heresy of the Christians had sprung up, and to publish those things which all they who knew us not speak against us ..." [more Isaiah ensues]
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18-22
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"... For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or Of the observance of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses; no more need is there of them now, after that, according to the will of God, Jesus Christ the Son of God has been born without sin, of a virgin sprung from the stock of Abraham. For when Abraham himself was in un-circumcision, he was justified and blessed by reason of the faith which he reposed in God, as the Scripture tells. Moreover, the Scriptures and the facts themselves compel us to admit that He received circumcision for a sign, and not for righteousness ... furthermore, the inability of the female sex to receive fleshly circumcision, proves that this circumcision has been given for a sign, and not for a work of righteousness ..."
24
But lest I appear now to diverge to other subjects, understand what I say: the blood of that circumcision is obsolete, and we trust in the blood of salvation; there is now another covenant, and another law has gone forth from Zion. Jesus Christ circumcises all who will--as was declared above--with knives of stone; that they may be a righteous nation, a people keeping faith, holding to the truth, and maintaining peace. Come then with me, all who fear God, who wish to see the good of Jerusalem. Come, let us go to the light of the Lord; for He has liberated His people, the house of Jacob.
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""I do not say so; but those who have persecuted and do persecute Christ, if they do not repent, shall not inherit anything on the holy mountain. But the Gentiles, who have believed on Him, and have repented of the sins which they have committed, they shall receive the inheritance along with the patriarchs and the prophets, and the just men who are descended from Jacob, even although they neither keep the Sabbath, nor are circumcised, nor observe the feasts..." [ more Isaiah ]
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Justin: "Since I bring from the Scriptures and the facts themselves both the proofs and the inculcation of them, do not delay or hesitate to put faith in me, although I am an uncircumcised man; so short a time is left you in which to become proselytes. If Christ's coming shall have anticipated you, in vain you will repent, in vain you will weep; for He will not hear yon. 'Break up your fallow ground,' Jeremiah has cried to the people, 'and sow not among thorns. Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and circumcise the foreskin of your heart.' Do not sow, therefore, among thorns, and in untilled ground, whence you can have no fruit. Know Christ; and behold the fallow ground, good, good and fat, is in your hearts. 'For, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will visit all them that are circumcised in their foreskins; Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the sons of Moab. For all the nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in their hearts.' Do you see how that God does not mean this circumcision which is given for a sign? For it is of no use to the Egyptians, or the sons of Moab, or the sons of Edom. But though a man be a Scythian or a Persian, if he has the knowledge of God and of His Christ, and keeps the everlasting righteous decrees, he is circumcised with the good and useful circumcision, and is a friend of God, and God rejoices in his gifts and offerings ..."
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"... For we do continually beseech God by Jesus Christ to preserve us from the demons which are hostile to the worship of God, and whom we of old time served, in order that, after our conversion by Him to God, we may be blameless. For we call Him Helper and Redeemer, the power of whose name even the demons do fear; and at this day, when they are exorcised in the name of Jesus Christ, crucified under Pontius Pilate governor of Judaea..." .
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crucified under Pontius Pilate, governor of Judaea, they are overcome. And thus it is manifest to all, that His Father has given Him so great power, by virtue of which demons are subdued to His name, and to the dispensation of His suffering.".
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(a) Trypho said,
"These and such like Scriptures, sir, compel us to wait for Him who, as Son of man, receives from the Ancient of days the everlasting kingdom. But this so-called Christ of yours was dishonourable and inglorious, so much so that the last curse contained in the law of God fell on him, for he was crucified."
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(c) Justin:
"...the Lord is called the Christ by the Holy Spirit of prophecy; and that the Lord, the Father of all, has brought Him again from the earth, setting Him at His own right hand,
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"...cease to deceive yourselves and those who hear you, and may learn of us, who have been taught wisdom by the grace of Christ. The words, then, which were spoken by David, are these ..."
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(d) Justin:
"... until He makes His enemies His footstool; which indeed happens from the time that our Lord Jesus Christ ascended to heaven, after He rose again from the dead, the times now running on to their consummation; and he whom Daniel foretells would have dominion for a time, and times, and an half, is even already at the door ..."
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(b)
so much so that the last curse contained in the law of God fell on him, for he was crucified."
33
"'The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent,' it is said; and, 'Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchizedek,' with what follows and precedes. Not even you will venture to object that Hezekiah was either a priest, or is the everlasting priest of God; but that this is spoken of our Jesus, these expressions show. But your ears are shut up, and your hearts are made dull. For by this statement, 'The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent: Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchizedek,' with an oath God has shown Him (on account of your unbelief) to be the High Priest after the order of Melchizedek; i.e., as Melchizedek was described by Moses as the priest of the Most High, and he was a priest of those who were in uncircumcision, and blessed the circumcised Abraham who brought him tithes, so God has shown that His everlasting Priest, called also by the Hold Spirit Lord, would be Priest of those in uncircumcision."
34
"...I venture to repeat what is written in the book of Kings as committed by him, how through a woman's influence he worshipped the idols of Sidon, which those of the Gentiles who know God, the Maker of all things through Jesus the crucified, do not venture to do, but abide every torture and vengeance even to the extremity of death, rather than worship idols, or eat meat offered to idols."
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"I venture to repeat what is written in the book of Kings as committed by him, how through a woman's influence he worshipped the idols of Sidon, which those of the Gentiles who know God, the Maker of all things through Jesus the crucified, do not venture to do, but abide every torture and vengeance even to the extremity of death, rather than worship idols, or eat meat offered to idols."
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And Trypho said, "I believe, however, that many of those who say that they confess Jesus, and are called Christians, eat meats offered to idols, and declare that they are by no means injured in consequence."

And I replied, "The fact that there are such men confessing themselves to be Christians, and admitting the crucified Jesus to be both Lord and Christ, yet not teaching His doctrines, but those of the spirits of error, causes us who are disciples of the true and pure doctrine of Jesus Christ, to be more faithful and stedfast in the hope announced by Him."

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"Wherefore we pray for you and for all other men who hate us; in order that you, having repented along with us, may not blaspheme Him who, by His works, by the mighty deeds even now wrought through His name, by the words He taught, by the prophecies announced concerning Him, is the blameless, and in all things irreproachable, Christ Jesus; but, believing on Him, may be saved in His second glorious advent, and may not be condemned to fire by Him."
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And Trypho said, "I believe, however, that many of those who say that they confess Jesus, and are called Christians, eat meats offered to idols, and declare that they are by no means injured in consequence."

And I replied, "The fact that there are such men confessing themselves to be Christians, and admitting the crucified Jesus to be both Lord and Christ, yet not teaching His doctrines, but those of the spirits of error, causes us who are disciples of the true and pure doctrine of Jesus Christ, to be more faithful and stedfast in the hope announced by Him.

"For what things He predicted would take place in His name, these we do see being actually accomplished in our sight.

"For he said, 'Many shall come in My name, clothed outwardly in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." And, 'There shall be schisms and heresies.' And, 'Beware of false prophets, who shall come to you clothed outwardly in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.'

"And, 'Many false Christs and false apostles shall arise, and shall deceive many of the faithful.' There are, therefore, and there were many, my friends, who, coming forward in the name of Jesus, taught both to speak and act impious and blasphemous things; and these are called by us after the name of the men from whom each doctrine and opinion had its origin ..."

"(others in another, teach to blaspheme the Maker of all things, and Christ, who was foretold by Him as coming, and the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, with whom we have nothing in common, since we know them to be atheists, impious, unrighteous, and sinful, and confessors of Jesus in name only, instead of worshippers of Him. Yet they style themselves Christians, just as certain among the Gentiles inscribe the name of God upon the works of their own hands, and partake in nefarious and impious rites.) Some are called Marcians, and some Valentinians, and some Basilidians, and some Saturnilians, and others by other names ...

"... in consequence of these events, we know that Jesus foreknew what would happen after Him ...

"Wherefore we pray for you and for all other men who hate us; in order that you, having repented along with us, may not blaspheme Him who, by His works, by the mighty deeds even now wrought through His name, by the words He taught, by the prophecies announced concerning Him, is the blameless, and in all things irreproachable, Christ Jesus; but, believing on Him, may be saved in His second glorious advent, and may not be condemned to fire by Him."
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"admitting the crucified Jesus to be both Lord and Christ, yet not teaching His doctrines"

Last edited by MrMacSon on Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:22 am, edited 9 times in total.
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