The falsified LXX was meant to support the NT. Nomina sacra for Christ / xristos in the "OT"

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Re: The falsified LXX was meant to support the NT. Nomina sacra for Christ / xristos in the "OT"

Post by mlinssen »

Steven Avery wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:08 am
mlinssen wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 2:22 am

Ps 20:6
Now I know that the LORD saves His anointed; He answers him from His holy heaven with the saving power of His right hand.
νῦν ἔγνων ὅτι ἔσωσεν κύριος τὸν χριστὸν αὐτοῦ· ἐπακούσεται αὐτοῦ ἐξ οὐρανοῦ ἁγίου αὐτοῦ· ἐν δυναστείαις ἡ σωτηρία τῆς δεξιᾶς αὐτοῦ.
Hi mlinssen,

Just using one of your excellent examples.

Are you concerned that the word χριστὸν is unusual in some way, Christianized?

Or are you just showing the norm, so that those have nomina sacra or unusual spellings can be compared?

Thanks!

Steven
Hi Steven, there's a small story to this, and that is that there are two ways to do research / problem solving: top-down or bottom-up. The former is usually conducted on the basis of ample documentation, attestation, etc. When there's none of that you can only get knee-deep into the mud and start digging until you find some

This thread started bottom-up, with collecting all samples of anointed in the LXX (Sweet's) and then comparing the Hebrew (in English, from a Judaic source like sefaria or Chabad) to that of the LXX in order to see what lies behind each source

That was a lot of work, as it turned out. Then I ran into the problem that I don't have a lot of LXX at my disposal in terms of real MSS, so I pulled from Sinaiticus as well as Vaticanus - which was even more work.
But then I ran into the XU of Sinaiticus 21:10...

So I decided to do a top-down instead and retrieved the Sinaiticus Transcription, which is in HTML and way too large to load into a browser. So I did some text handling and curating and now have a naked Transcription that is the diplomatic Transcription as one can see it on their site

So what you see here, in this last post, are the twelve nomina sacra used in the Sinaiticus LXX to denote anointed.
All of which impossible to have existed in any Vorlage of course

I have tried to get more transcriptions but the work that has been done by INTF and others is almost exclusively on the NT

TL;DR: AFAIK these are the nomina sacra that are usually used for Christ in the NT yet they're all applied to anointed in the LXX instead

So what you see in viewtopic.php?p=151700#p151700 is the regular LXX, with the diplomatic from Sinaiticus
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Re: The falsified LXX was meant to support the NT. ALL Nomina sacra for Christ / xristos in the "OT"

Post by mlinssen »

Steven Avery wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:13 am
mlinssen wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:35 pm

Psalms 19:7 (20:6 !!!)

νῦν ἔγνων ὅτι ἔσωσεν Κύριος τὸν χριστὸν αὐτοῦ· ἐπακούσεται αὐτοῦ ἐξ οὐρανοῦ ἁγίου αὐτοῦ, ἐν δυναστείαις ἡ σωτηρία τῆς δεξιᾶς αὐτοῦ.

Now I know that the LORD saves His anointed; He answers him from His holy heaven with the saving power of His right hand

https://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manu ... omSlider=0

νυν εγνων οτι εϲωϲεν κϲ τον
χν αυτου
επακουϲεται αυτου εξ ουρανου
αγιου αυτου
εν δυναϲτειαιϲ η ϲωτηρια τηϲ δε
ξιαϲ αυτου

Hi mlinssen,

Using one of your many superb examples.

Do you have any idea whether this specific nomina sacra in the "LXX" for the anointed one shows up in other Greek manuscripts, early or late?

Thanks!

Steven
I've run out of Transcriptions, alas. I could do it manually and check how these look in Vaticanus but I'm looking for a smarter way so I can do an entire LXX in a few minutes. Don't have access to Alexandrinus, haven't located Ephraim - I don't usually dabble with LXX. Hell, my pet project is Coptic Thomas and I've strayed miles from the path.
Which Thomas would approve, of course :D
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Re: The falsified LXX was meant to support the NT. ALL Nomina sacra for Christ / xristos in the "OT"

Post by Steven Avery »

mlinssen wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:50 am Don't have access to Alexandrinus
It is possible that Grabe’s printed OT edition is accurate on the nomina sacra.
Last edited by Steven Avery on Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The falsified LXX was meant to support the NT. Nomina sacra for Christ / xristos in the "OT"

Post by Steven Avery »

mlinssen wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:46 am TL;DR: AFAIK these are the nomina sacra that are usually used for Christ in the NT yet they're all applied to anointed in the LXX instead

So what you see in viewtopic.php?p=151700#p151700 is the regular LXX, with the diplomatic from Sinaiticus
Yes, that is excellent.

I was just first confirming that the verses with the full word χριστὸν were in just as part of the process, and is normative.
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Re: The falsified LXX was meant to support the NT. Nomina sacra for Christ / xristos in the "OT"

Post by mlinssen »

Steven Avery wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:04 am
mlinssen wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:46 am TL;DR: AFAIK these are the nomina sacra that are usually used for Christ in the NT yet they're all applied to anointed in the LXX instead

So what you see in viewtopic.php?p=151700#p151700 is the regular LXX, with the diplomatic from Sinaiticus
Yes, that is excellent.

I was just first confirming that the verses with the full word χριστὸν were in just as part of the process, and is normative.
Check

Please also do notice that I used just the regular "OT" translation, which greatly deviates from the LXX of course

For example Isaiah 45:1

Thus says the Lord God to my anointed, Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped so that nations will obey before him, and I will break through the strength of kings;
I will open doors before him— and cities shall not be closed

While the OT states - much more in line with the MT, if not fully agreeing

This is what the LORD says to Cyrus His anointed, whose right hand I have grasped to subdue nations before him, to disarm kings, to open the doors before him, so that the gates will not be shut

The LXX deviates greatly from the Tanakh, of course

I haven't checked whether any agrees with the diplomatic of Sinaiticus, the entire point of this was first to point out the use of χριστὸν for anointed, which oddly is a word much more often used than in the NT (ding ding ding ding ding!!!!!!!!), but then I ran into the nomen sacrum for it, which naturally prevailed over everything

I'll check Grabe, tnx
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Re: The falsified LXX was meant to support the NT. Nomina sacra for Christ / xristos in the "OT"

Post by Steven Avery »

mlinssen wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:09 pm I'll check Grabe, tnx
Grabe was used for Breitinger, they are likely the same on these issues.

Later came Zosimas, which was used as one of the sources for Sinaiticus. Those, for some books Alexandrinus and Sinaiticus are close, the same vorlage,

When I get home from Buns and Burger, I should be able to tell you which of these have online editions.
Definitely Zosimas.
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Re: The falsified LXX was meant to support the NT. Nomina sacra for Christ / xristos in the "OT"

Post by mlinssen »

Steven Avery wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:36 pm
mlinssen wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:09 pm I'll check Grabe, tnx
Grabe was used for Breitinger, they are likely the same on these issues.

Later came Zosimas, which was used as one of the sources for Sinaiticus. Those, for some books Alexandrinus and Sinaiticus are close, the same vorlage,

When I get home from Buns and Burger, I should be able to tell you which of these have online editions.
Definitely Zosimas.
Vaticanus has the same

https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Vat.gr.1209/629

Left column, line 13 from the bottom ends with XU AUTOU

I'm on mobile, this is beyond tedious - but from an anomaly this has suddenly turned out to be not uncommon, and perhaps it's even the default.
Still, the catch for Sinaiticus for you is in Psalms 68:18 (69:17) where the scribe was guaranteed to have this in his Vorlage - and also guaranteed to not know what he was writing (and certainly reading)
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Re: The falsified LXX was meant to support the NT. Nomina sacra for Christ / xristos in the "OT"

Post by Steven Avery »

Thanks!
Any NS that is also in Vaticanus, will automatically be less "special" if in Sinaiticus. While Vaticanus may be quite a bit later than the 300s, it is likely reasonably early.

The NS has only been a small interest in our studies, but I will try to give some more feedback. It still would be especially interesting to see if Zosima, especially as it was a special direct Sinaiticus source, has some of the same unusual NS as Sinaiticus. We are always keeping our eyes open for connections of that nature.

From what I see, the Psalms verse just shows that the scribe had a very low skill level on the Greek, but this is no surprise in Sinaiticus. Would you agree that it just shows a blunderama scribe? However, it is the "best" Sinaiticus scribe, D.

On Alexandrinus I mentioned the Grabe, Breitlinger and Zosima editions. It turns out I have references to them on a few pages. Here is my pointer page.

Pointer page
Alexandrinus OT through Grabe, Breitlinger, Zosima
https://www.purebibleforum.com/index.ph ... sima.3006/

Here is Zosima online:

Ta Biblia: toutestin hē Theia Grafē tēs Palaias te kai Kainēs Diathēkēs : kai hē men Palaia kata tous Hebdomēkonta, ek tou ōs oion te akribōs ekdothentos archaiou Alexandrinou cheirographou, ē de Kainē ek tēs kat' epikyrōsin tou tēs Kōnstantinoupoleōs patriarchou Kyrillou ekdoseōs etei 1810 genomenēs (1821)
https://books.google.com/books?id=-YpDAAAAcAAJ

Lots of info about Alexandrinus, Grabe and Breitlinger and Zosima are on the pages, above, I can extract some more if needed.

Steven
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Re: The falsified LXX was meant to support the NT. Nomina sacra for Christ / xristos in the "OT"

Post by mlinssen »

The Zosima you pointed to is unabridged, alas.
I've added from Vaticanus to the "post of the fourteen Sinaiticus OT XS", and lo and behold: no exceptions so far, and I've covered 8.
So I think we can now state that this was a rule rather than an exception, and I am willing to bet that it is an indication of the age of a text as well, although "fanaticism" perhaps is a better indicator.
Although the LXX is an inherent part of Christianity and not Chrestianity, I can't imagine the earliest LXX to have these particular "obscenities", it's just too shameless (and not in a good sense)

Under different circumstances - meaning with other NS then this one - we'd have irrefutable evidence of copying from Vaticanus to Sinaiticus or vice versa, but the regularity and consistence of IS and XS is - in the Greek tradition - a gazillion percent.
In Coptic apocrypha these rules are less stringent, and for instance the NHL has 192 + [6] abbreviated I(H)S, with one IHSOUS in full; and 168 + [8] abbreviated X(R)S, and 34 + [8] unabridged ones: ⲭⲣⲏⲥ, ⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ, ⲙⲛⲧ-ⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ, ⲙⲛⲧ-ⲭⲣⲥ, ⲙⲛⲧ-ⲭⲥ. And to finish it all of, 4 + [2] ⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲓⲁⲛⲟⲥ and 2 ⲭⲣⲓⲥⲧⲓⲁⲛⲟⲥ.
I have no idea about Coptic Christian MSS, alas

In related news: I'm finding a boatload of ⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ in the LXX, and there's already a list for Sinaiticus.
I'm willing to argue that a different Greek word was used for the non-Christian LXX that we have, such as e.g. Fouad 266, as it is not hard to sell that this word is much too frequent
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Re: The falsified LXX was meant to support the NT. Nomina sacra for Christ / xristos in the "OT"

Post by mlinssen »

The exhaustive list from Sinaiticus including the odd books (excluding anything from the NT, of course). Some corrections are interesting as well:

{BARN 12:10}ειδε παλιν ιϲ[n] ουχι ϋιοϲ ανου[n] αλλα υϊοϲ του θυ[n] τυπω δε εν ϲαρκι φανερωθειϲ επι ουν μελλουϲιν {ORIG:}{CORR:"cc":λεγειν} οτι χϲ[n] ϋϊοϲ δα[n]δ εϲτιν αυτοϲ {ORIG:ο}{CORR:"S1":} προφητευει δαδ[n] φοβουμενοϲ και ϲυνιων την πλανην τω[n] αμαρτωλων . ειπεν κϲ[n] τω κω[n] μου καθου εκ δεξιω[n] μου εωϲ αν θω τουϲ εχθρουϲ ϲου ϋποποδιον τω[n] ποδων ϲου
{BARN 12:11} και παλιν λεγει ουτωϲ ηϲαϊαϲ · ειπε[n] κϲ[n] τω {ORIG:κω[n]}{CORR:"cc":χω[n]} μου {ORIG:}{CORR:"cc":κυρω}{CORR:"cc":κυρω} ου εκρατηϲεν τηϲ {ORIG:}{CORR:"cc":χειροϲ τηϲ} δεξιαϲ αυτου επακουϲε {ORIG:}{CORR:"cc":εμπροϲθεν} αυτου εθνη και ϊϲχυν βαϲιλεων διαρρηξω ειδε πωϲ δα[n]δ λεγει αυτον κν[n] και υν[n]
{BARN 14:5}εφανερωθη δε {ORIG:εινα}{CORR:"cc":ϊνα} κακινοι τελιωθωϲιν τοιϲ αμαρτημαϲιν και ημιϲ δια του κληρονομουντοϲ {ORIG:}{CORR:"cc":κυ[n] ιυ[n]}διαθηκην κυ[n] {ORIG:ιυ[n]}{CORR:"cc":χυ[n]}λαβωμεν {ORIG:<gap reason="unreadable" units="chars" extent="1" />ϲ}{CORR:"corr":οϲ} ειϲ τουτο ητοιμαϲθη ϊνα αυτοϲ φανιϲ ταϲ ηδη δεδαπανημεναϲ ημων καρδιαϲ τω θανατω και παραδεδομεναϲ τη τηϲ πλανηϲ ανομια λυτρωϲαμενοϲ εκ του ϲκοτουϲ διαθηται εν ημιν διαθηκη[n] λογω
{BARN 15:9}διο και αγομεν την ημεραν την ογδοην ειϲ ευφροϲυνην εν η και ο {ORIG:ιϲ[n]}{CORR:"cc":κϲ[n] ημων ιϲ[n] ο χϲ[n]} ανεϲτη εκ νεκρων και φανερωθειϲ ανεβη ειϲ ουνου[n]ϲ
{BARN 8:2}νοειται πωϲ εν απλοτητι λεγεται ϋμιν {ORIG:νομοϲ χϲ[n] ιϲ[n]}{CORR:"cc":ο μοϲχοϲ ο ιϲ[n]} εϲτιν οι προϲφερο[n]τεϲ ανδρεϲ αμαρτωλοι οι προϲενεγκαντεϲ αυτον επι την ϲφαγην ειτα ουκετι ανδρεϲ ουκετι αμαρτωλω[n] η δοξα ·
{HERM 6:8}ωμοϲεν γαρ κϲ[n] κατα του ϋϊου αυτου τουϲ αρνηϲαμενουϲ το[n] {ORIG:χν[n]}{CORR:"ca":κν[n]} αυτων απεγνωριϲθαι απο τηϲ ζωηϲ αυτων τουϲ νυν μελλονταϲ αρνιϲθαι ταιϲ ερχομεναιϲ {ORIG:ημερεϲ}{CORR:"ca":ημεραιϲ} τοιϲ δε προτερον αρνηϲαμενοιϲ δια την πολυϲπλαγχνιαν {DIAE:i} λεωϲ εγενετο αυτοιϲ
{ISA 45:1} ουτωϲ λεγει {ORIG:κϲ[n] ο θϲ[n]}{CORR:"ca":κϲ[n] ο θϲ[n]} · τω {ORIG:χω[n]}{CORR:"ca":χω[n]} μου κυρω · {ORIG:ουκ}{CORR:"cc":ὁυ} εκρατηϲα τηϲ δεξιαϲ {ORIG:}{CORR:"cb1":αυτου}{CORR:"d":αυτου} · {ORIG:επακουϲε}{CORR:"ca":επακουϲαι}{CORR:"cb3":επακουϲαι} εμπροϲθεν αυτου {ORIG:εθνη}{CORR:"d":ε εθνη} · και ϊϲχυν βαϲιλεων {ORIG:διαρηξω}{CORR:"ca":διαρρηξω}{CORR:"cb3":διαρρηξω} · ανοιξω εμπροϲθεν αυτου θυραϲ · και {ORIG:πολιϲ}{CORR:"cb3":πολειϲ} ου ϲυνκλιϲθηϲονται ·
{LEV 21:10} και ο ϊερευϲ ο μεγαϲ απο̣ των αδελφω[n] αυτου του επικεχυμε̣νου επι τη̣ν κεφαλ̣ην του ελαιου τ̣ο̣υ χυ[n] και τετελιωμενου {ORIG:}{CORR:"cb1":ταϲ χειραϲ} ενδυϲαϲθαι τα ϊματια την κεφαλην ουκ {ORIG:απομιτρωϲει}{CORR:"S1":αποκιδαρωϲει}{CORR:"cb2":αποκιδαρωϲει} και τα ϊματια {ORIG:}{CORR:"ca":αυτου} ου διαρρηξει
{PS 131:10}ενεκεν δα[n]δ του δουλου ϲου μη αποϲτρεψηϲ το προϲωπον του χυ[n] ϲου
{PS 131:17}εκει εξανατελω κεραϲ τω {ORIG:δαυειδ}{CORR:"d":δαυειδ} ητοιμαϲα λυχνον τω {ORIG:χω[n] μου}{CORR:"d":χω[n] μου}
{PS 17:51}μεγαλυνων ταϲ ϲωτηριαϲ του βαϲιλεωϲ {ORIG:αυτου}{CORR:"ca":} και ποιων ελεοϲ τω χω[n] αυτου τω δαυειδ και τω ϲπερματι αυτου ε
{PS 19:7}νυν εγνων οτι εϲωϲεν κϲ[n] τον χν[n] αυτου επακουϲεται αυτου εξ ουρανου αγιου αυτου εν δυναϲτειαιϲ η ϲωτηρια τηϲ δεξιαϲ αυτου
{PS 27:8}κϲ[n] κραταιωμα του λαου αυτου και ϋπεραϲπιϲτηϲ των ϲωτηριων του χυ[n] αυτου εϲτιν
{PS 2:2}παρεϲτηϲαν οι βαϲιλειϲ τηϲ γηϲ και οι αρχοντεϲ ϲυνηχθηϲαν επι το αυτο κατα του κυ[n] και κατα του χυ[n] αυτου
{PS 68:18}μη αποϲτρεψηϲ το προϲωπον ϲου απο του παιδοϲ ϲου οτι θλιβομαι {ORIG:τα χυ[n]}{CORR:"S1":ταχυ} επακουϲον μου
{PS 83:10}ϋπεραϲπιϲτα ημων ϊδε ο θϲ[n] και επιβλεψον επι το προϲωπον του χυ[n] ϲου
{PS 88:39}ϲυ δε απωϲω και εξουδενωϲαϲ {ORIG:ημαϲ}{CORR:"ca":}ανεβαλου τον χν[n] ϲου
{PS 88:52}ου ωνειδιϲαν οι εχθροι ϲου κε[n] ου ωνειδιϲαν το ανταλλαγμα του χυ[n] ϲου
{SIR 46:19}και προ καιρου κοιμηϲεωϲ αιωνοϲ · επεμαρτυρατο εναντι κυ[n] · και χυ[n] {ORIG:}{CORR:"ca":αυτου ˙} χρηματα · και εωϲ {DIAE:υ}ποδηματων · απο παϲηϲ ϲαρκοϲ · ουκ {ORIG:ειληφα}{CORR:"ca":ειληφεν} · και ουκ ενεκαλεϲεν αυτω ανοϲ[n] ·

[n] indicates a line-ending superlinear replacing Nu, and also a full superlinear for an abbreviation. This is from a first run of attempting to restoring the transcription to a mean and lean textual object which contains exactly the same information as the html transcript provided
Last edited by mlinssen on Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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