Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

For "best historicist case" I mean:
The reason the Gospel Jesus resembles so many Josephian figures is because he was one of them. Therefore: Jesus existed.

It is therefore expected that te best mythicist case reads as the following:

The reason the Gospel Jesus resembles so many Josephian figures is because he was the literary synthesis of many of them. Therefore: Jesus didn't exist.

I note therefore that the Doherty/Carrier's view of hallucinations/mystical pre-70 experiences at the origin of the Christianity doesn't fit the evidence insofar the hallucinations/mystical pre-70 experiences don't explain debtly the post-70 Gospel attention about earthly Josephian figures. If Carrier insists that Paul was totally apolitical, then how does he explain the political interests of post-70 Christianity? Afterall, if you make the literary synthesis of Josephian political figures, then you are going to do de facto politics, even if only in a veiled form.

I am inclined therefore to re-value the (Van Manen's and) Joseph Turmel's view of the historical Paul as a mere follower of a messianist, later updated in a mystical/hallucinatory figure only by Gnostic and Marcionite sects.

If the historical Paul was a follower of a real messianist, then the latter was only one of the many figures of which the Gospel Jesus is the literary synthesis. Could this "real messianist" be considered, in virtue of this relation with his mere propagandist Paul, THE "historical Jesus"?

the Gospel Jesus resembles so many Josephian figure

Not sure about that

It could just be a so-repeated trope that it has become lore

Moreover, no-one in Josephus is referred to as a Messiah figure (other then what I think are dubious references to Jesus Christ in Antiquities 18.3.3/63-4 (the ‘TF’) and 20.9.1/200). The assertion that there are other Messiah figures in Josephus is baseless (and Messiah-like is a stretch, too)

I am inclined therefore to re-value the (Van Manen's and) Joseph Turmel's view of the historical Paul as a mere follower of a messianist, later updated in a mystical/hallucinatory figure only by Gnostic and Marcionite sects.

If the historical Paul was a follower of a real messianist, then the latter was only one of the many figures of which the Gospel Jesus is the literary synthesis. Could this "real messianist" be considered ...

What messianist might Paul have followed? Who?

What internal and external evidence is there for such a proposal?

MrMacSon wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:20 pmThe assertion that there are other Messiah figures in Josephus is baseless (and Messiah-like is a stretch, to)

prof Christophe Batsch argues for pre-70 messianism in the Diaspora (and by logical implication: in Judea, too).

MrMacSon wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:24 pm What messianist might Paul have followed? Who?

What internal and external evidence is there for such a proposal?

Greg Doudna thinks that Paul was a follower of Jesus ben Sapphas.
Joseph Turmel thought that Paul was a follower of a Jesus resembling too much Judas the Galilean.
I assume that the readers know their cases.

This is a good book for a very good price (I think the kindle version is free)

Messianic Expectations: From the Second Temple Era through the Early Centuries of the Common Era, 2018, by Juan Marcos Bejarano Gutierrez

https://www.amazon.com/Messianic-Expect ... 1720290393

Giuseppe wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:28 pm

MrMacSon wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:24 pm What messianist might Paul have followed? Who?
What internal and external evidence is there for such a proposal?

Greg Doudna thinks that Paul was a follower of Jesus ben Sapphas.
Joseph Turmel thought that Paul was a follower of a Jesus resembling too much Judas the Galilean.
I assume that the readers know their cases.

Nope, I’ve never heard or read those propositions (or I’ve forgotten I had)
I think they’re a case of trying for ‘best fit’ but are unlikely to be what happened.

Though I am sympathetic to Frans Vermeiren’s propositions and argument in his book, A Chronological Revision of the Origins of Christianity, that aspects of the stories about Jesus of Nazareth could be based on Josephus’ accounts of Jesus ben Sapphas/Sapphat/Sapphias

MrMacSon wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:32 pm This is a good book for a very good price

Messianic Expectations: From the Second Temple Era through the Early Centuries of the Common Era, 2018, by Juan Marcos Bejarano Gutierrez

https://www.amazon.com/Messianic-Expect ... 1720290393

Thanks for info. I just downloaded the book from amazon uk - just £2.48.
My reading list is getting rather long - so will be a week or two before I get into it ...

maryhelena wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:50 pm

MrMacSon wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:32 pm This is a good book for a very good price

Messianic Expectations: From the Second Temple Era through the Early Centuries of the Common Era, 2018, by Juan Marcos Bejarano Gutierrez

https://www.amazon.com/Messianic-Expect ... 1720290393

Thanks for info. I just downloaded the book from amazon uk - just £2.48.
My reading list is getting rather long - so will be a week or two before I get into it ...

I also dowloaded the book now from Amazon. It's a very very basic book.
Most of the texts are underdeveloped with very short commentaries, some texts are completely absent, there are only few quotes from other scholars.

I guess it can be good for a first approach of the subject but for someone who has already read these Messianic texts, i think it's useless.

Sinouhe wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:34 am

maryhelena wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:50 pm

MrMacSon wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:32 pm This is a good book for a very good price

Messianic Expectations: From the Second Temple Era through the Early Centuries of the Common Era, 2018, by Juan Marcos Bejarano Gutierrez

https://www.amazon.com/Messianic-Expect ... 1720290393

Thanks for info. I just downloaded the book from amazon uk - just £2.48.
My reading list is getting rather long - so will be a week or two before I get into it ...

I also dowloaded the book now from Amazon. It's a very very basic book.
Most of the texts are underdeveloped with very short commentaries, some texts are completely absent, there are only few quotes from other scholars.

I guess it can be good for a first approach of the subject but for someone who has already read these Messianic texts, i think it's useless.

Your probably right - £2.48 was the hook......maybe it might reference other Jewish perspectives on the messiah issue....