Help with Kotoku Shusui

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Chrissy Hansen
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Re: Help with Kotoku Shusui

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:08 am
Chris Hansen wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:23 pmNo, he was a mythicist. And his work became very influential in China after it was translated, especially among the anti-Christian movements. It influenced the acceptance of mythicism as a dominant position over there. It was translated multiple times after that as well.
That's very very interesting. I knew that Jesus mythicism was promoted in Soviet Russia, but was completely unaware of it in Japan and China. If you find any English translation of any mythicist works from Japan or China, or if you write any articles on the topic, please let me know!
There is almost nothing in English. To my knowledge, only a single Soviet text was translated into English and no Chinese ones have been. There are, however, a few different resources you can look at for overviews of the topic. I have written my own discussion of the Christ Myth debate and its history in Marxist circles (including in Japan and China).

My article is here (if you need it hit me up via my public email: linked here https://hcommons.org/members/chrishans97/ )
https://www.pdcnet.org/asrr/content/asr ... 9_11_15_94

I also suggest grabbing Roman Malek's (ed.), The Chinese Face of Jesus, volumes 3a, 3b, 4a (Monumenta Serica Monograph Series). These volumes contain Wang Xiaochao's summary of the Christ Myth debate in China, and then also have a few English translations of some texts, though unfortunately none of the mythicist ones. They do, however, contain one text from Zhu Zhixin entitled "What is Jesus?" which is fairly intriguing.

Hope this helps.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Help with Kotoku Shusui

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Chris Hansen wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:49 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:08 amThat's very very interesting. I knew that Jesus mythicism was promoted in Soviet Russia, but was completely unaware of it in Japan and China. If you find any English translation of any mythicist works from Japan or China, or if you write any articles on the topic, please let me know!
There is almost nothing in English. To my knowledge, only a single Soviet text was translated into English and no Chinese ones have been. There are, however, a few different resources you can look at for overviews of the topic. I have written my own discussion of the Christ Myth debate and its history in Marxist circles (including in Japan and China).
Fascinating. I've read some stuff on Christianity through Japanese and Chinese eyes (I'm a fan of Lin Yutang, a Chinese philosopher who converted to Christianity and wrote in the 1930s and 1940s), but it never even occurred to me that there might be some who argued that Christ never existed. I'd have thought there'd be no point. It'd be like a Western Christian arguing to a Western audience that the Japanese Emperor wasn't divine.

I noticed that Kotoku Shusui was a socialist. Do you know if that was the connection also with Chinese mythicist publications? Or were there earlier, non-Communist, Chinese publications as well? If so, then I suppose it might have been a reaction to Western imperialism rather than to communism.
Chris Hansen wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:49 amMy article is here (if you need it hit me up via my public email: linked here https://hcommons.org/members/chrishans97/ )
https://www.pdcnet.org/asrr/content/asr ... 9_11_15_94
I shall! Thanks Chris.
Chrissy Hansen
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Re: Help with Kotoku Shusui

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No problem. China was actually one of the only two places where Mythicism attained a dominant position among academics (though, as with the USSR, mostly due to state enforcement/coercion in the field and also drastic censorship). Once the censorship and more academic freedom were allowed after Mao's death and the end of the Cultural Revolution (and then also the Open Door Policy in 1978), acacdemics began challenging the consensus such as Hu Yutang, and within the span of around 15 years or so it shifted from mythicism to historicism. I don't know of any Bible scholars in China today who are mythicists, though I have found Kotoku Shusui occasionally still cited.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Help with Kotoku Shusui

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Chrissy Hansen wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:27 pmSo is there any help y'all can give me?
Chrissy, you got me so interested in the topic that I had to go ahead and translate those two pages! I'll email you the Japanese text and translation, but I thought I'd give a summary here for those interested.

As I expected, there were a couple of Japanese characters that I had to guess about, since they predate the standardisation of Kanji. But I'd say I've gotten 99% of the Japanese transcription (not the translation(!), just the transcription of the Japanese characters) correct, so someone with much better Japanese than mine should be able to use it to create a more accurate translation.

As for my translation: I've relied heavily on Google translate. I'm going through it to make changes that make sense to me, but that won't be much.

This is the outline of what is on those two pages:

* Kōtoku writes that the most important passage for the "the Christian Murderers" is in "Antiquities of the Jews". I'm guessing by "murderers" he means people who misrepresent Christ. But it may also mean people who murder in the name of Christ.

* He then quotes the Testimonium Flavianum, which takes up about half a page, ending with "And even today, the race of disciples who bear his name has not diminished at all."

* He then quotes from Matthew 15. The direct translation is: "In the 15th chapter of Mataichi, Christ says, 'I will not send you out of the house of Israel's lost sheep.'" Kōtoku says "If you believe this, then Christ would never have invited the Gentiles." I'm not clear what he says next, but it is to the effect that Josephus couldn't have said Jesus was Christ.

* He then brings in Eusebius, "who is famous for being able to falsify ancient Christian texts at will", and that no-one before Eusebius ever wrote about the TF. Kōtoku writes that "Lardner, Gibbon, director Warverton, Zeels, etc., [say that they] are all fakes, and even the reporters of the Encyclopedia Britannica admit it." Other than Gibbon, I don't recognise those names, and they are transliterations from katakana so the spellings might not be correct.

* Kōtoku writes that it wasn't just Josephus alone, but "At that time, nearly all of (Kota 揂太)'s literary histories did not mention Christ." Unfortunately "揂" is my best guess of what the original character in your image is, but I'm pretty sure I'm wrong. It's used quite a few times so I'll see if I can track it down. It seems to be a name, so my best guess is that it stands for "Romans" or "Gentiles".

* He then writes "According to Six(?) English Encyclopedias", the writings of Josephus were falsified. He continues to quote the Encyclopedia (I think!) with: "However, in the Unexpurgated Edition of the Talmud, there are about 20 references to Christ, and in that book, the name of Christ is called Panthera. And then, "the wisdom which we have from the heretics (concerning Christ) is actually far more than we believe we can hope and expect."

* Kōtoku then continues: "The name of Pantera has been said seven times. Celsus is known as the greatest historian and philosopher of the second century. During the reign of the Emperor Hadrian, he wrote two volumes and spared no effort in attacking the doctrine of Christianity from a philosophical point of view."

That's the end of the second page. I'll see if I can track down those two mystery Japanese characters, update my translations appropriately and email you the results. My translation is lousy, so don't read any subtly into it. I'm confident that my broad outline is correct, but I wouldn't want to launch any arguments from it.

Hope this has been helpful!
Last edited by GakuseiDon on Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Chrissy Hansen
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Re: Help with Kotoku Shusui

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

Awesome, thank you so so so much, that is an immense help! You are a lifesaver!
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Help with Kotoku Shusui

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GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:33 pm Kōtoku writes that "Lardner, Gibbon, director Warverton, Zeels, etc., [say that they] are all fakes, and even the reporters of the Encyclopedia Britannica admit it."
Nathaniel Lardner (1684 – 1768):
https://ia800304.us.archive.org/18/item ... 01lard.pdf
"The testimony of Josephus to the fulfilment of our Saviour's predictions in the destruction of Jerusalem, is invaluable. His accounts of the state of things in Judea, before the commencement of the war, and during the ministry of our Saviour and his apostles, are also very valuable, indeed above all price. But I do not perceive, that we at all want the suspected testimony to Jesus, which was never quoted by any of our christian ancestors before Eusebius. Nor do I recollect that he has any where mentioned the name, or word, Christ, or Messiah, in any of his works, except the testimony above mentioned, and the passage concernini; James the Lord's brother. If you recollect any place, where Messiah is mentioned by him, let me know it. If that word is never to be found in him elsewhere, he must have designedly and studiously declined it ; for he had many occasions to mention it. It therefore is unlikely he should produce that word in speaking of Jesus. Explain the term as you please, it must be unaccountable, that it should be brought in here."

I can't place the others either.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Help with Kotoku Shusui

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Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:40 pmNathaniel Lardner (1684 – 1768):

I can't place the others either.
That's great! The other two names are transliterations, so spellings are approximate.

ヮーバートン = Waabaaton. It might be Warverton, Warbarton, Wayberton. The "Wah" and "ton" sounds are solid, but the middle part may vary.

ジールス = Jiirusu. I suspect this is a French name. Perhaps "Jules", though "Ji" sounds against it. It sounds like "Jills" but with a long "i" sound.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Help with Kotoku Shusui

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GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:37 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:40 pmNathaniel Lardner (1684 – 1768):

I can't place the others either.
That's great! The other two names are transliterations, so spellings are approximate.

ヮーバートン = Waabaaton. It might be Warverton, Warbarton, Wayberton. The "Wah" and "ton" sounds are solid, but the middle part may vary.

ジールス = Jiirusu. I suspect this is a French name. Perhaps "Jules", though "Ji" sounds against it. It sounds like "Jills" but with a long "i" sound.
Thank you! We're almost certainly dealing with Warburton and Giles, names mentioned in this sequence from Remsburg's The Christ (1909).

https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/46986/pg46986.txt
Again Dr. Lardner says: "This passage is not quoted nor referred to by
any Christian writer before Eusebius, who flourished at the beginning
of the fourth century. If it had been originally in the works of
Josephus it would have been highly proper to produce it in their
disputes with Jews and Gentiles. But it is never quoted by Justin
Martyr, or Clement of Alexandria, nor by Tertullian or Origen, men
of great learning, and well acquainted with the works of Josephus. It
was certainly very proper to urge it against the Jews. It might also
have been fitly urged against the Gentiles. A testimony so favorable
to Jesus in the works of Josephus, who lived so soon after our Savior,
who was so well acquainted with the transactions of his own country,
who had received so many favors from Vespasian and Titus, would not be
overlooked or neglected by any Christian apologist" (Lardner's Works,
vol. I, chap. iv).

Bishop Warburton declares it to be a forgery: "If a Jew owned the
truth of Christianity, he must needs embrace it. We, therefore,
certainly conclude that the paragraph where Josephus, who was as much
a Jew as the religion of Moses could make him, is made to acknowledge
Jesus as the Christ, in terms as strong as words could do it, is a
rank forgery, and a very stupid one, too" (Quoted by Lardner, Works,
Vol. I, chap. iv).

The Rev. Dr. Giles, of the Established Church of England, says:

"Those who are best acquainted with the character of Josephus,
and the style of his writings, have no hesitation in condemning
this passage as a forgery, interpolated in the text during the third
century by some pious Christian, who was scandalized that so famous a
writer as Josephus should have taken no notice of the gospels, or of
Christ, their subject. But the zeal of the interpolator has outrun
his discretion, for we might as well expect to gather grapes from
thorns, or figs from thistles, as to find this notice of Christ among
the Judaizing writings of Josephus. It is well known that this author
was a zealous Jew, devoted to the laws of Moses and the traditions of
his countrymen. How, then, could he have written that Jesus was the
Christ? Such an admission would have proved him to be a Christian
himself, in which case the passage under consideration, too long
for a Jew, would have been far too short for a believer in the new
religion, and thus the passage stands forth, like an ill-set jewel,
contrasting most inharmoniously with everything around it. If it had
been genuine, we might be sure that Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and
Chrysostom would have quoted it in their controversies with the Jews,
and that Origen or Photius would have mentioned it. But Eusebius,
the ecclesiastical historian (I, 11), is the first who quotes it,
and our reliance on the judgment or even honesty of this writer is
not so great as to allow our considering everything found in his
works as undoubtedly genuine" (Christian Records, p. 30).
Chrissy Hansen
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Re: Help with Kotoku Shusui

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

Ah, that makes a lot of sense. Looks like Kotoku was probably familiar with Remsburg, and probably a number of others. I know that he specifically studied in the United States for a time, so he probably became familiar with the height of the Christ Myth debate going on in Europe when he was writing, and Remsburg would have been rather readily accessible.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Help with Kotoku Shusui

Post by GakuseiDon »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:58 pmThank you! We're almost certainly dealing with Warburton and Giles, names mentioned in this sequence from Remsburg's The Christ (1909).
That's great detective work, Peter! I'm guessing now that "Director Warburton" should be translated as "Bishop Warburton", even though the modern Japanese word for Bishop isn't 監督. It may just be an older Japanese term, or it may be Kōtoku has taken it from the Chinese. I'll update my translation to show "Bishop".
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