Help with Kotoku Shusui

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Chrissy Hansen
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Help with Kotoku Shusui

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

Hey guys, so I don't know Japanese but I want to be able to cite this passage here because, well, this caught my eye. I own this book "On the Obliteration of Christ" by Kotoku Shusui and been wanting to go through it for years, but I just... can't read Japanese. Always need help because I haven't had time to teach myself to read it yet.

So is there any help y'all can give me?

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The frontmatter page I could use help with since this is a reprint and I need to accurately cite it. Any help is welcome.
lclapshaw
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Re: Help with Kotoku Shusui

Post by lclapshaw »

Chris Hansen wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:27 pm Hey guys, so I don't know Japanese but I want to be able to cite this passage here because, well, this caught my eye. I own this book "On the Obliteration of Christ" by Kotoku Shusui and been wanting to go through it for years, but I just... can't read Japanese. Always need help because I haven't had time to teach myself to read it yet.

So is there any help y'all can give me?

Image

Image

Image

The frontmatter page I could use help with since this is a reprint and I need to accurately cite it. Any help is welcome.
:lol:
Chrissy Hansen
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Re: Help with Kotoku Shusui

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

Something funny?
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Help with Kotoku Shusui

Post by GakuseiDon »

I studied Japanese for four years in Japan, but that is WAY beyond my capabilities. Looks like some older-style Japanese also, so you may have problems running parts of it through modern-day translation programs.

For the front cover:

幸徳 秋水 = Author's name, Kōtoku Shūsui
岩波文庫 = Publisher's name I guess. Iwanami Bunko
基督抹殺論 = "Theory of Christianity" is what it translates to according to Google Translate, but it calls it Chinese. So old style Japanese. The Kanji could be read though as "Christ Ignore/Denial Theory". 基督 = Christ, 抹殺 = Ignore/Deny, 論 = Theory

Japanese wiki about author: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B9%B8 ... B%E6%B0%B4

Here is the Amazon JP page for the book: https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E5%9F%BA%E7%9 ... 4003312554

There are browser extensions that allow you to translate into English that might be useful.

This is from Google Translate from the Japan wiki webpage about the author:

While in prison, he completed the manuscript of "Christ Killing Theory" (November 21, 1910), in which he advocated the elimination of the monarch, using Jesus Christ as a deified being as a metaphor for the monarch . The content largely agrees with the theory of Christianity of Annie Besant of the Theosophical Society , and Besant's influence has been pointed out. This became his manuscript. [12]

I can pick out a few words, like "Eusebius" and "Pandera". But that's about all, I'm afraid. Looks interesting!
Giuseppe
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Re: Help with Kotoku Shusui

Post by Giuseppe »

How could Annie Besant have influence on a mythicist, when she was clearly a historicist:


It is evident that by his contemporaries Jesus was not regarded as God incarnate. The people in general appear to have looked upon him as a great prophet, and to have often debated among themselves whether he were their expected Messiah or not. The band of men who accepted him as their teacher were as far from worshipping him as God as were their fellow-countrymen

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/37234/3 ... k2H_4_0002
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Help with Kotoku Shusui

Post by GakuseiDon »

Giuseppe wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:45 am How could Annie Besant have influence on a mythicist, when she was clearly a historicist:
I don't think Kōtoku Shūsui was a mythicist. I'm only going by what is on the websites I linked to, but it sounds like he was attacking the Imperial system and the idea of Emperor Meiji as a deity. At the start of the 20th Century, miliitarism rose side-by-side with a more strident form of Shintoism, where the Emperor was regarded as a living god, a direct descendent of the goddess Amaterasu. Kōtoku Shūsui seems to be attacking that idea, using parallels with similar arguments by Besant about Christ.

It's all part of the fascinating world of Nihonjinron (日本人論), "The Theory of Being Japanese", which is an explanation of Japanese people to themselves, highlighting their uniqueness mentally, physically and culturally. If you thought ancient Mediterranean beliefs were weird, you haven't seen anything yet!
Chrissy Hansen
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Re: Help with Kotoku Shusui

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:01 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:45 am How could Annie Besant have influence on a mythicist, when she was clearly a historicist:
I don't think Kōtoku Shūsui was a mythicist. I'm only going by what is on the websites I linked to, but it sounds like he was attacking the Imperial system and the idea of Emperor Meiji as a deity. At the start of the 20th Century, miliitarism rose side-by-side with a more strident form of Shintoism, where the Emperor was regarded as a living god, a direct descendent of the goddess Amaterasu. Kōtoku Shūsui seems to be attacking that idea, using parallels with similar arguments by Besant about Christ.

It's all part of the fascinating world of Nihonjinron (日本人論), "The Theory of Being Japanese", which is an explanation of Japanese people to themselves, highlighting their uniqueness mentally, physically and culturally. If you thought ancient Mediterranean beliefs were weird, you haven't seen anything yet!
No, he was a mythicist. And his work became very influential in China after it was translated, especially among the anti-Christian movements. It influenced the acceptance of mythicism as a dominant position over there. It was translated multiple times after that as well.

He essentially wrote this book as a two-pronged attack both on the Imperial system and Emperor directly, and then also on Christianity and Christ.
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mlinssen
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Re: Help with Kotoku Shusui

Post by mlinssen »

Chris Hansen wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:23 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:01 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:45 am How could Annie Besant have influence on a mythicist, when she was clearly a historicist:
I don't think Kōtoku Shūsui was a mythicist. I'm only going by what is on the websites I linked to, but it sounds like he was attacking the Imperial system and the idea of Emperor Meiji as a deity. At the start of the 20th Century, miliitarism rose side-by-side with a more strident form of Shintoism, where the Emperor was regarded as a living god, a direct descendent of the goddess Amaterasu. Kōtoku Shūsui seems to be attacking that idea, using parallels with similar arguments by Besant about Christ.

It's all part of the fascinating world of Nihonjinron (日本人論), "The Theory of Being Japanese", which is an explanation of Japanese people to themselves, highlighting their uniqueness mentally, physically and culturally. If you thought ancient Mediterranean beliefs were weird, you haven't seen anything yet!
No, he was a mythicist. And his work became very influential in China after it was translated, especially among the anti-Christian movements. It influenced the acceptance of mythicism as a dominant position over there. It was translated multiple times after that as well.

He essentially wrote this book as a two-pronged attack both on the Imperial system and Emperor directly, and then also on Christianity and Christ.
Errrrr....
Chris Hansen wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 1:38 pm I did try, but his behavior towards me attempting to engage him was immediate contempt. So, I have just decided it is not worth it for myself. It also is because I have just been steadily coming to the conclusion that whether or not Jesus existed is just largely irrelevant for studying Christian origins. Been more and more seeing why Soviet marxists just abandoned the issue altogether.
It's been 2 weeks now. Having second thoughts?
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Help with Kotoku Shusui

Post by GakuseiDon »

Chris Hansen wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:23 pmNo, he was a mythicist. And his work became very influential in China after it was translated, especially among the anti-Christian movements. It influenced the acceptance of mythicism as a dominant position over there. It was translated multiple times after that as well.
That's very very interesting. I knew that Jesus mythicism was promoted in Soviet Russia, but was completely unaware of it in Japan and China. If you find any English translation of any mythicist works from Japan or China, or if you write any articles on the topic, please let me know!
Chrissy Hansen
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Re: Help with Kotoku Shusui

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

mlinssen wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:19 am It's been 2 weeks now. Having second thoughts?
No. In case you didn't notice the section I'm asking about is Josephus' Antiquities. I'm not really concerned about whether Jesus existed. I'm mostly doing reception history at this point, and then also looking at early texts. I'm particularly interested in martyrdom traditions.
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