GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:04 pm
maryhelena wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:18 am
GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:22 amSo, we have two hypotheses on the table to explain the references in the Babylonian Talmud:
1. There was some sort of Gospel circulating from an early Christian sect, that narrated a Jesus born of the virgin Mary in Bethlehem and executed under Jannaeus. The writers of the Talmud decided to include this information by writing about a Jesus who was a sorcerer and a Mary who cheated on her husband, because they wanted to take jabs at Christians and their Christ story.
2. Over a thousand year period, texts were subtly rewritten to take jabs at Christians and their Christ story.
I think the evidence supports the latter hypothesis.
'..jabs at Christians and their Christ story'....with a storyline set in the time of Alexander Jannaeus ??
No, with a storyline set in 70 BCE (Jesus the Nazarene)
and also set in Second Century CE (Ben Pandera). Carrier sees this as evidence that the Talmud compilers didn't know when their Jesus lived, suggesting that that Jesus didn't exist in history. Either way, the Jesus portrayed -- sorceror, born of a woman called Mary who had an affair -- seems to be a distortion of the character portrayed in the Gospels, even if the Gospel was about a 70 BCE Jesus.
If Doherty is correct, it seems that texts were modified throughout the centuries, with names (e.g. Manasseh) being replaced to point to Jesus. I suggest that this was opportunistic, and done without concern about the time period.
If Epiphanius had actually written about a sect of Christians who thought that Jesus lived around 70 BCE, Carrier's case would be strengthened. He'd have a witness to his reading of the Babylonian Talmud. But as that is not true, I think he his overall case on this point is weak.
The Toledot Yeshu story is what it is - a birth in the time of Alexander Jannaeus and a death in the time of a Queen Helene. Alexander Jannaeus 103 - 76 b.c. Coins establish his historicity. There are no coins for a wife of Alexander Jannaeus named Queen Helene. There is no historical evidence for a Ben Pandera.
The Toledot Yeshu is a story it is not a historical record. The Yeshu birth story is dated to the time of Jannaeus. That is the bare bones of historical data that can be established from the story. The rest is interpretation of a story. Yes, one can, as I have done in the link to an FRDB thread - considerd the history of the years from the time of Alexander Jannaeus to see if an identification of the story's Queen Helene is possible. Coins exist for Queen Cleopatra Selene. Daughter of Mark Antony - the executioner of the last Hasmonean King and High Priest.
Moving Pandera to a second century dating is simply nonsensical. The story is what it is.
GDon, all the wonder-doer, magic man, stories have developed; they have moved to different historical time slots. Indicating that the wonder-doer, magic man, stories are not about a historical figure whatsoever.
1) a birth in the time of Alexander Jannaeus, 103 - 76 b.c. Toledot Yeshu.
2) a birth prior to the 15th year of Herod. Slavonic Josephus.
3) a birth late in the time of Herod, Jesus a young child in time of Archelaus. Gospel of Matthew.
4) a birth in the time of Quirinius. Gospel of Luke.
It is easy to knock Carrier - and it's something you have been engaged in for many years now. However, Carrier does not have the final say on the ahistoricist Jesus position. He has, like many others, contributed to that position. It's obviously an interest of yours to take Carrier to task - and with your proposed series of threads on this forum - you have spent a lot of time and work on your arguments. But surely, the whole idea is not knocking down but to build up - to demonstrate your own historicist position. Knocking Carrier is easy work. I, personally, don't see any benefit in doing so. Yep, judge his work, find his interpretations to be unsatisfactory - and move on. It's your time - and it gives you satisfaction - so what can one say - take care that you don't get waylaid from the real task before us. Striving for answers to that 2000 year old story.