"A Case for Apollonius of Tyana = Paul..."

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: "A Case for Apollonius of Tyana = Paul..."

Post by neilgodfrey »

Let's be fair and understand what the paper is. It is introduced as a prolegomenon. It is not presented as a detailed argument to make the case. It is presented as an introduction to propose opening up a certain possibility for further investigation. Hence the title: "for a more in-depth research development" As such, it is an overview of key points that are generally known to its conference audience, and that's why there are not only "no footnotes" but even an absence of inline citations from passages in Josephus.

My response is that I don't think we have sufficient evidence to investigate the proposal of the paper in any more depth. Example, the Simon, James and John said to be the leaders in Jerusalem at the time of "Saul the Herodian" do not include the same James and John we find in other sections of Josephus. One also has to ask if the conditions that were extant at the time in which Josephus describes the presence of James and John sons of Sosa were such as permitted the proposed visit by a Josephus ally.

That said, we have sound reasons for taking Josephus's work as little more than Flavian propaganda that was sneered at by his Jewish contemporaries. Further, the "theological views" of Josephus were very much in line with the general themes of Paul's theology. And others have noted the potential overlaps between Josephus and characters and scenarios in the gospel crucifixion and burial scenes.

So there are pros and cons, and even the cons do contain interesting echoes of "pros".

I personally doubt that Paul's letters were a product the first century -- I am not declaring that as a fact but I am acknowledging that normal historical methods of dating documents -- as well as their provenance -- are being bypassed by biblical scholars when approaching Paul's letters. The general overview of Paul's history "behind the letters" is, despite disclaimers, to some extent grounded in the image we gain from Acts, and the Acts portrayals have been argued to be little more than a kind of "midrash" or "intertextual mimesis" on other narratives.

There are simply so many unknowns and Greg Doudna's paper takes us a little deeper into that dark territory to introduce us to even more "unknowns" -- opening up even more possibilities.

Thinking through the many possibilities, I suspect, will not lead us to siding with any one of them in particular, but rather will enrich our options and that will lead to a very large set of data that any "best explanation" will need to address.

--------
Added later:

We also need to keep in mind that the notice of this conference paper was posted here, with cynical innuendo, by someone who has had a vicious multi-year campaign of attacking Greg Doudna, both personally and "professionally".
StephenGoranson
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Re: "A Case for Apollonius of Tyana = Paul..."

Post by StephenGoranson »

What "cynical innuendo" was in the OP?
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Peter Kirby
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Re: "A Case for Apollonius of Tyana = Paul..."

Post by Peter Kirby »

neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:25 pm There are simply so many unknowns and Greg Doudna's paper takes us a little deeper into that dark territory to introduce us to even more "unknowns" -- opening up even more possibilities.
It does stack improbabilities on top of other improbabilities. These interesting possibilities are fiction for a certain set.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: "A Case for Apollonius of Tyana = Paul..."

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:11 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:25 pm I am acknowledging that normal historical methods of dating documents -- as well as their provenance -- are being bypassed by biblical scholars when approaching Paul's letters.
In other words, you don't like these conclusions as much, so you're going to strain the gnat here.
I disagree with this assessment. Neil has spent a good bit of time examining historical methodology - both biblical and classical. That the historical methods used by biblical scholars are at variance with the historical methods used by classical scholars has been pointed out by many classical scholars. This is not a gnat. It's an elephant.

For example, Russell Gmirkin highlights these differences in the methodology section of his book "Berossus and Genesis, Manetho and Exodus: Hellenistic Histories and the Date of the Pentateuch" (2006). Arnaldo Momigliano goes so far as to refer to the biblical scholars as the "insiders" and to the classical scholars (including himself) as the "outsiders".
Last edited by Leucius Charinus on Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: "A Case for Apollonius of Tyana = Paul..."

Post by neilgodfrey »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:05 am Arnaldo Momigliano goes so far as to refer to the biblical scholars as the "insiders" and to the classical scholars (including himself) as the "outsiders".
I have missed (or forgotten) that reference. Can you point me to it, please?
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: "A Case for Apollonius of Tyana = Paul..."

Post by Leucius Charinus »

neilgodfrey wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:13 am
Leucius Charinus wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:05 am Arnaldo Momigliano goes so far as to refer to the biblical scholars as the "insiders" and to the classical scholars (including himself) as the "outsiders".
I have missed (or forgotten) that reference. Can you point me to it, please?
This is from my handwritten notes from reading the book:

ON PAGANS, JEWS, and CHRISTIANS
--- Arnaldo Momigliano, 1987


Chapter 1:

Biblical Studies and Classical Studies
Simple Reflections upon Historical Method



p.3

Principles of Historical research need not be different
from criteria of common sense. And common sense teaches
us that outsiders must not tell insiders what they should
do. I shall therefore not discuss directly what biblical
scholars are doing. They are the insiders.

What I can perhaps do usefully is to emphasise as briefly
as possible three closely interrelated points of my
experience as a classical scholar who is on speaking terms
with biblical scholars.

1) our common experience in historical research;

2) the serious problems we all have to face because of the
current devaluation of the notion of evidence and of the
corresponding over-appreciation of rhetoric and ideology
as instruments for the analysis of the literary sources;

3) what seems to me the most fruitful field of collaboration
between classical and biblical scholars.


Let me admit from the start that I am rather impervious to
any claim that sacred history poses problems which are not
those of profane history.

http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/arnal ... STIANS.htm

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neilgodfrey
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Re: "A Case for Apollonius of Tyana = Paul..."

Post by neilgodfrey »

Of course. Thank you.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: "A Case for Apollonius of Tyana = Paul..."

Post by Leucius Charinus »

StephenGoranson wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:55 am by Gregory Doudna

https://www.academia.edu/98630702/_A_Ca ... sentation_

(I have preliminary thoughts, but others may go ahead.)
So what are your preliminary thoughts to Gregory Doudna's prolegomenon SG?

I'd also be interested to hear what you think about a highly valuable evidence item contributing towards the historicity of Apollonius, not mentioned by the author in the above prolegomenon.

That is the inscription to Apollonius in the Adana museum. One translation of this is as follows:

'This man, named after Apollo,
and shining forth Tyana,
extinguished the faults of men.
The tomb in Tyana (received) his body,
but in truth heaven received him
so that he might drive out the pains of men
(or: drive pains from among men) .'

--- translated C. P. Jones


An Epigram on Apollonius of Tyana
C. P. Jones
The Journal of Hellenic Studies,
Vol. 100, Centennary Issue. (1980),
pp. 190-194.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/630745

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DCHindley
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Re: "A Case for Apollonius of Tyana = Paul..."

Post by DCHindley »

StephenGoranson wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:55 am by Gregory Doudna

https://www.academia.edu/98630702/_A_Ca ... sentation_

(I have preliminary thoughts, but others may go ahead.)
Rather than take this waaay off track, had you noticed this:'
Comparative parallel: Peregrinus and Polycarp

A striking comparative parallel is the second-century philosopher Peregrinus and the second-century Christian figure Polycarp. A convincing case has been made that the martyrdom of Polycarp is a variant version of the self-immolation of Peregrinus (published starting Sept 7, 2010 on the blog, “Stephan Huller’s Observations”).
I have seen, and participated in, threads about the similarities between Peregrinus and Ignatius of Antioch, and others that drew attention to Trobisch's suggestion that the NT, as we have it now, was published by Polycarp sometime mid-2nd century CE. But Peregrinus as Polycarp? That I do not recall. Had I missed something?

I was struck by the similarities between Apollonius of Tyana (as described by Philostratus) and both the figure of Jesus in the Gospels and the figure of Paul that emerges from the letters and from Acts of the Apostles, when I first looked at the matter. Unfortunately I do not recall when or on what forum, I may have posted something about it. I'll root around.

DCH
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Irish1975
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Re: "A Case for Apollonius of Tyana = Paul..."

Post by Irish1975 »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:37 pm The paper is unconvincing in its argument that Philostratus could have managed to write a life of Paul without dealing with him as a Christian. And also in suggesting that Paul's activity as a Christian could have been a minor part of his life.

Our own Andrew once pointed out where the letters of Paul assume a pre-70 temple, and when there are few anchors for speculation already, I'm not eager to dig up the ones we have.

Overall, the kind of work that must be what Neil means when he says non-biblical scholars are left feeling queasy.
Irish1975 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:55 pm Guys, a case could be made that Acts of the Apostles assumes a pre-70 life of Paul.

We have so few anchors for speculation already.

#NotLettingGo

/s
Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:19 pm Do I hear the hiss of an unmoored speculator scorned?
Hmmm.

FWIW, I have seen the Doudna paper, and to me it reads like a poor imitation of Philip K. Dick's whacked out novel Valis. Sober historical criticism it is not.

Anyhow, to explain myself, I was light-heartedly poking fun at your tangential comment on a 1st century Paul. I think the supposed references in the Pauline Corpus to a temple are as superficial as those in Hebrews, 1 Clement, etc. Scribes of the 2nd century would, of course, have wanted to write as though from the vantage point of the pre-70 world. It is their chronology! And to do so would have been anything but difficult for them, in light of everything that is written in the NT. All to say, I cannot stomach any such "evidence" for dating the Pauline Corpus to the 1st century. The conventional portrait is always ultimately predicated on the validity of Acts, whether our historians want to admit it or not.

I don't perceive (my own) skepticism of the standard account of Christianity as "umoored speculation." Quite the opposite.

But maybe I misunderstood where you are coming from.
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