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How can Mark 3:17 mention the “sons of thunder” without knowing Luke 9:52-56 ?
Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:39 am
by Giuseppe
James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means “sons of thunder”)
(Mark 3:17)
Luke 9:52-56:
52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
Two options:
- Mark knew it from a previous gospel.
- Mark comes after proto-Luke, aka Mcn.
Re: How can Mark 3:17 mention the “sons of thunder” without knowing Luke 9:52-56 ?
Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:49 am
by mlinssen
Giuseppe wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:39 am
James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means “sons of thunder”)
(Mark 3:17)
Luke 9:52-56:
52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
Two options:
- Mark knew it from a previous gospel.
- Mark comes after proto-Luke, aka Mcn.
The Coptic contains almost nothing of this, or rather, a very fresh version only:
- Screenshot_20230326_204358_Chrome~2.jpg (369.85 KiB) Viewed 429 times
54 just as Elijah did = absent
55 you don't know if what kind of spirit you are = absent
56 ONLY: He went to another village
I was looking for a clue to Boanerges, but fell to something else. Swiss cheese, all of it
Βοανηργές (Boanerges), ὅ (which) ἐστιν (is), Υἱοὶ (Sons) Βροντῆς (of thunder)
Exact same word in Coptic
MIND YOU, AS ALWAYS the translation is just a bible version, and NOT a translation of what the text says
Gawd forbid that everyone can see the gigantic differences
Re: How can Mark 3:17 mention the “sons of thunder” without knowing Luke 9:52-56 ?
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:12 am
by Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Giuseppe wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:39 am
James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means “sons of thunder”)
(Mark 3:17)
Luke 9:52-56:
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, ...?
Two options:
- Mark knew it from a previous gospel.
- Mark comes after proto-Luke, aka Mcn.
Wouldn't they then be called "sons of fire"?
Re: How can Mark 3:17 mention the “sons of thunder” without knowing Luke 9:52-56 ?
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:36 am
by mlinssen
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:12 am
Giuseppe wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:39 am
James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means “sons of thunder”)
(Mark 3:17)
Luke 9:52-56:
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, ...?
Two options:
- Mark knew it from a previous gospel.
- Mark comes after proto-Luke, aka Mcn.
Wouldn't they then be called "sons of fire"?
Mark 3:17
(BSB)
James [son] of Zebedee and his brother John ( [whom] He named Boanerges, meaning Sons of Thunder ),
(CopSahHorner)
ⲁⲩⲱ ⲓ̈ⲁⲕⲱⲃⲟⲥ ⲡϣⲏⲣⲉ ⲛ̅ⲍⲉⲃⲉⲇⲁⲓⲟⲥ ⲛⲙ̅ⲓ̈ⲱϩⲁⲛⲏⲥ ⲡⲥⲟⲛ ⲛ̅ⲓ̈ⲁⲕⲱⲃⲟⲥ. ⲁϥϯϩⲉⲛⲣⲁⲛ ⲉⲣⲟⲟⲩ ϫⲉ ⲃⲟⲁⲛⲏⲣⲅⲉⲥ ⲉⲧⲉⲡⲁⲓ̈ ⲡⲉ ⲛ̅ϣⲏⲣⲉ ⲙ̅ⲡⲉϩⲣⲟⲩⲃⲃⲁⲉⲓ.
(THGNT)
καὶ Ἰάκωβον τὸν τοῦ Ζεβεδαίου καὶ Ἰωάννην τὸν ἀδελφὸν τοῦ Ἰακώβου, καὶ ἐπέθηκεν αὐτοῖς ὀνόματα Βοανηργές, ὅ ἐστιν υἱοὶ βροντῆς·
Luke 9:54
(BSB)
When the disciples James and John saw [this] , they asked, “Lord, do You want us to call down fire from heaven to consume them?”
(CopSahHorner)
ⲁⲙⲙⲁⲑⲏⲧⲏⲥ ⲇⲉ ⲛⲁⲩ ⲓ̈ⲁⲕⲱⲃⲟⲥ ⲛⲙ̅ⲓ̈ⲱϩⲁⲛⲛⲏⲥ ⲡⲉϫⲁⲩ ⲛⲁϥ ϫⲉ. ⲡϫⲟⲉⲓⲥ ⲕⲟⲩⲱϣ ⲉⲧⲣⲉⲛϫⲟⲟⲥ ⲛ̅ⲧⲉⲟⲩⲕⲱϩⲧ̅ ⲉ͡ⲓ ⲉⲃⲟⲗ ϩⲛⲧⲡⲉ ⲛϥ̅ϥⲟⲧⲟⲩ ⲉⲃⲟⲗ.
(THGNT)
ἰδόντες δὲ οἱ μαθηταὶ Ἰάκωβος καὶ Ἰωάννης εἶπαν· κύριε, θέλεις εἴπωμεν πῦρ καταβῆναι ἀπὸ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καὶ ἀναλῶσαι αὐτούς;
Βρόντης βροντάω
thunderer, one of the three Cyclopes, Hes
And
βροντή Akin to βρέμω, βρόμος.
I.thunder, Hom., etc.
II.the state of one struck with thunder, astonishment, Hdt.