Can you cite any examples?Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sun Mar 26, 2023 2:13 pm The problem is that Christians since antiquity have taken "Christ" to be Jesus last name or part of his name. The anointed (one).
This seems like the crux to me:GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Sun Mar 26, 2023 4:20 am Hi Giuseppe. Could you do me a favour please? Could you summarise Carrier's argument that's in his blog post?
Some will point here to the closing section in this final Excursus where Justin accuses the Jews of spreading the lie about Christians stealing the body from the tomb (§108), and argue this means Justin understood Trypho to be a historicist. That would not be the case, of course; granting a fact you don’t believe in “for the sake of argument,” and then staging a conditional argument on it, was common in rhetoric then as now. “Even if there was an empty tomb, you could have stolen the body” is an argument that does not entail believing there was an empty tomb. Likewise historicity. Hence the similar arguments Justin assigns to Trypho in §32, §36, §38, etc. But in §39, Justin depicts Trypho’s patience with this pose running out, as he finally breaks down and insists Justin actually “produce for us the reason that this guy, the one you claim was crucified and ascended to heaven, is the Christ of God.” The verb “to claim” here typically relates to suppositions and beliefs; mere assertions. Trypho is thus made to regard even the existence of this crucified man a mere supposition, someone Justin only says existed. We see this again in §49, where Trypho says those Christians “who say” Christ was a mere man are saying something more “plausible” than what Justin is saying, twice exhibiting the same skeptical distance.
I'd like to read this. Is there any online copy that I can access for free?“You Invent for Yourselves a Trypho: Addressing Radical Reinterpretations of Trypho and Canonical and Non-Canonical Scriptures” in the Journal of Biblical Theology (2022).
Leucius Charinus wrote: ↑Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:23 pm A 28p article from JBL (2020) rather than JBL (2022).
May be revised? IDK.
The AJBT is a weekly on-line journal...
[...]
The JBT is a quarterly paperback journal that draws its resources from the AJBT. Papers that have been approved for publication in the AJBT are further reviewed by the Board of Directors who then recommend publication in the JBT.
"AJBT Purpose and Doctrinal Statement". biblicaltheology.com.
Volume
Select to ContactYou Invent a Trypho for Yourselves: Addressing Radical Reinterpretations of Trypho and Canonical and Non-Canonical Scriptures. Hansen, Christopher M.
"American Journal of Biblical Theology". biblicaltheology.com.
| . 1. Καὶ ὁ Τρύφων· Ἐμοὶ μὲν δοκοῦσιν, εἶπεν, οἱ λέγοντες ἄνθρωπον γεγονέναι αὐτὸν καὶ κατ' ἐκλογὴν κεχρῖσθαι καὶ Χριστὸν γεγονέναι πιθανώτερον ὑμῶν λέγειν, τῶν ταῦτα ἅπερ φῂς λεγόντων· καὶ γὰρ πάντες ἡμεῖς τὸν Χριστὸν ἄνθρωπον ἐξ ἀνθρώπων προσδοκῶμεν γενήσεσθαι, καὶ τὸν Ἠλίαν χρῖσαι αὐτὸν ἐλθόντα. ἐὰν δὲ οὗτος φαίνηται ὢν ὁ Χριστός, ἄνθρωπον μὲν ἐξ ἀνθρώπων γενόμενον ἐκ παντὸς ἐπίστασθαι δεῖ.1 ἐκ δὲ τοῦ μηδὲ Ἠλίαν ἐληλυθέναι οὐδὲ τοῦτον ἀποφαίνομαι εἶναι.' . |
. 1. Trypho said, "Those who affirm him to have been a man, and to have been anointed by election, and then to have become Christ, appear to me to speak more plausibly than you who hold those opinions which you express. And, indeed, we all expect Christ, man of men, to come into being; and that Elijah when he comes will anoint him. But if he [this man] appear to be Christ, he must certainly be known as [a] man [made] of men. But from the circumstance that Elijah has not yet come, I infer that neither has he [the Christ] come".2 . |
| οὗτος | φαίνηταιa | .ὢν ὁ Χριστός, | ἄνθρωπον, | μὲν ἐξ | ἀνθρώπων, | γενόμενον | ἐκ παντὸς | ἐπίστασθαιb | .δεῖ |
| hoûtos) | phaínetaia | .eṓn ho Christos, | anthropon, | anthropon | genómenos, | ..pantos | |||
| ...he | appears to be | actually from Christ, | ..man, | indeed of | ..men, | ..made | from* every/ all .* from out of every/all | known truth | [a] must |
| . 2. Κἀγὼ πάλιν ἐπυθόμην αὐτοῦ· Οὐχὶ Ἠλίαν φησὶν ὁ λόγος διὰ Ζαχαρίου ἐλεύσεσθαι πρὸ τῆς ἡμέρας τῆς μεγάλης καὶ φοβερᾶς ταύτης τοῦ κυρίου; Κἀκεῖνος ἀπεκρίνατο· Μάλιστα. Ἐὰν οὖν ὁ λόγος ἀναγκάζῃ ὁμολογεῖν ὅτι δύο παρουσίαι τοῦ Χριστοῦ προεφητεύοντο γενησόμεναι, μία μέν, ἐν ᾗ παθητὸς καὶ ἄτιμος καὶ ἀειδὴς φανήσεται, ἡ δὲ ἑτέρα, ἐν ᾗ καὶ ἔνδοξος καὶ κριτὴς ἁπάντων ἐλεύσεται, ὡς καὶ ἐν πολλοῖς τοῖς προλελεγμένοις ἀποδέδεικται, οὐχὶ τῆς φοβερᾶς καὶ μεγάλης ἡμέρας τοῦτ' ἔστι τῆς δευτέρας παρουσίας αὐτοῦ, πρόοδον γενήσεσθαι τὸν Ἠλίαν νοήσομεν τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ κεκηρυχέναι; Μάλιστα, ἀπεκρίνατο. . |
. 2. Then I inquired of him, "Does not Scripture, in the [logos] of Zechariah, say that Elijah shall come before the great and terrible day of the Lord?" And he answered, "Certainly." "If therefore Scripture compels you to admit that two advents of Christ were predicted to take place - one in which He would appear suffering, and dishonoured, and without comeliness; but the other in which He would come glorious. and Judge of all, as has been made manifest in many of the forecited passages - shall we not suppose that the word of God has proclaimed that Elijah shall be the precursor of the great and terrible day, that is, of His second advent?" "Certainly," he answered. . |
| . 3. Καὶ ὁ ἡμέτερος οὖν κύριος, ἔφην, τοῦτο αὐτὸ ἐν τοῖς διδάγμασιν αὐτοῦ παρέδωκε γενησόμενον, εἰπὼν καὶ Ἠλίαν ἐλεύσεσθαι· καὶ ἡμεῖς τοῦτο ἐπιστάμεθα γενησόμενον, ὅταν μέλλῃ ἐν δόξῃ ἐξ οὐρανῶν παραγίνεσθαι ὁ ἡμέτερος κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, οὗ καὶ τῆς πρώτης φανερώσεως κῆρυξ προῆλθε τὸ ἐν Ἠλίᾳ γενόμενον πνεῦμα τοῦ θεοῦ, ἐν Ἰωάννῃ, τῷ γενομένῳ ἐν τῷ γένει ὑμῶν προφήτῃ, μεθ' ὃν οὐδεὶς ἕτερος λοιπὸς παρ' ὑμῖν ἐφάνη προφήτης· ὅστις ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰορδάνην ποταμὸν καθεζόμενος ἐβόα· Ἐγὼ μὲν ὑμᾶς βαπτίζω ἐν ὕδατι εἰς μετάνοιαν· ἥξει δὲ ὁ ἰσχυρότερός μου, οὗ οὐκ εἰμὶ ἱκανὸς τὰ ὑποδήματα βαστάσαι· αὐτὸς ὑμᾶς βαπτίσει ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ καὶ πυρί. οὗ τὸ πτύον αὐτοῦ ἐν τῇ χειρὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ διακαθαριεῖ τὴν ἅλωνα αὐτοῦ καὶ τὸν σῖτον συνάξει εἰς τὴν ἀποθήκην, τὸ δὲ ἄχυρον κατακαύσει πυρὶ ἀσβέστῳ. . |
. 3. "And, accordingly, our Lord in His teaching," I continued, "proclaimed that this very thing would take place, saying that Elijah would also come. And we know that this shall take place when our Lord Jesus Christ shall come in glory from heaven; whose first manifestation the Spirit of God who was in Elijah preceded as herald in [the person of] John, a prophet among your nation; after whom no other prophet appeared among you. He cried, as he sat by the river Jordan: 'I baptize you with water to repentance; but He that is stronger than I shall come, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor, and will gather the wheat into the barn; but the chaff He will burn up with unquenchable fire.' . |
| . 4. καὶ τοῦτον αὐτὸν τὸν προφήτην συνεκεκλείκει ὁ βασιλεὺς ὑμῶν Ἡρώδης εἰς φυλακήν, καὶ γενεσίων ἡμέρας τελουμένης, ὀρχουμένης τῆς ἐξαδέλφης αὐτοῦ τοῦ Ἡρώδου εὐαρέστως αὐτῷ, εἶπεν αὐτῇ αἰτήσασθαι ὃ ἐὰν βούληται. καὶ ἡ μήτηρ τῆς παιδὸς ὑπέβαλεν αὐτῇ αἰτήσασθαι τὴν κεφαλὴν Ἰωάννου τοῦ ἐν τῇ φυλακῇ· καὶ αἰτησάσης ἔπεμψε καὶ ἐπὶ πίνακι ἐνεχθῆναι τὴν κεφαλὴν Ἰωάννου ἐκέλευσε. . |
. 4. "And this very prophet your king Herod had shut up in prison; and when his birthday was celebrated, and the niece of the same Herod by her dancing had pleased him, he told her to ask whatever she pleased. Then the mother of the maiden instigated her to ask the head of John, who was in prison; and having asked it, [Herod] sent and ordered the head of John to be brought in on a charger. . |
| . 5. διὸ καὶ ὁ ἡμέτερος Χριστὸς εἰρήκει ἐπὶ γῆς τότε τοῖς λέγουσι πρὸ τοῦ Χριστοῦ Ἠλίαν δεῖν ἐλθεῖν· Ἠλίας μὲν ἐλεύσεται καὶ ἀποκαταστήσει πάντα· λέγω δὲ ὑμῖν ὅτι Ἠλίας ἤδη ἦλθε, καὶ οὐκ ἐπέγνωσαν αὐτόν, ἀλλ' ἐποίησαν αὐτῷ ὅσα ἠθέλησαν. καὶ γέγραπται ὅτι Τότε συνῆκαν οἱ μαθηταὶ ὅτι περὶ Ἰωάννου τοῦ βαπτιστοῦ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς. . |
. 5. "Wherefore also our Christ said, [when He was] on earth, to those who were affirming that Elijah must come before Christ: 'Elijah shall come, and restore all things; but I say unto you, that Elijah has already come, and they knew him not, but have done to him whatsoever they chose.' And it is written, 'Then the disciples understood that He spake to them about John the Baptist'." . |
| . 6. Καὶ ὁ Τρύφων· Καὶ τοῦτο παράδοξον λέγειν μοι δοκεῖς, ὅτι τὸ ἐν Ἠλίᾳ τοῦ θεοῦ γενόμενον προφητικὸν πνεῦμα καὶ ἐν Ἰωάννῃ γέγονε. Κἀγὼ πρὸς ταῦτα· Οὐ δοκεῖ σοι ἐπὶ Ἰησοῦν, τὸν τοῦ Ναυῆ, τὸν διαδεξάμενον τὴν λαοηγησίαν μετὰ Μωυσέα, τὸ αὐτὸ γεγονέναι, ὅτε ἐρρέθη τῷ Μωυσεῖ ἐπιθεῖναι τῷ Ἰησοῦ τὰς χεῖρας, εἰπόντος αὐτοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ· Κἀγὼ μεταθήσω ἀπὸ τοῦ πνεύματος τοῦ ἐν σοὶ ἐπ' αὐτόν; . |
. 6. And Trypho said, "This statement also seems to me paradoxical; namely, that the prophetic Spirit of God, who was in Elijah, was also in John." To this I replied, "Do you not think that the same thing happened in the case of Joshua/Ἰησοῦν/Iesous, the son of Nave (Nun), who succeeded to the command of the people after Moses, when Moses was commanded to lay his hands on Joshua/Ἰησοῦ/Iesous, and God said to him, 'I will take of the spirit which is in thee, and put it on him?' " . |
| . 7. Κἀκεῖνος· Μάλιστα. Ὡς οὖν, φημί, ἔτι ὄντος τότε ἐν ἀνθρώποις τοῦ Μωυσέως, μετέθηκεν ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰησοῦν ὁ θεὸς ἀπὸ τοῦ ἐν Μωυσεῖ πνεύματος, οὕτως καὶ ἀπὸ τοῦ Ἠλίου ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰωάννην ἐλθεῖν ὁ θεὸς δυνατὸς ἦν ποιῆσαι, ἵνα, ὥσπερ ὁ Χριστὸς τῇ πρώτῃ παρουσίᾳ ἄδοξος ἐφάνη, οὕτως καὶ τοῦ πνεύματος τοῦ ἐν Ἠλίᾳ πάντοτε καθαρεύοντος, τοῦ Χριστοῦ, ἄδοξος ἡ πρώτη παρουσία νοηθῇ. |
. 7. And he said, "Certainly." "As therefore," I say, "while Moses was still among men, God took of the spirit which was in Moses and put it on 'Joshua'/Ἰησοῦν/Iesous, even so God was able to cause [the spirit] of Elijah to come upon John; in order that, as Christ at His first coming appeared inglorious, even so the first coming of the spirit, which remained always pure in Elijah is like that of Christ, might be perceived to be inglorious. . |
| . 8. κρυφίᾳ γὰρ χειρὶ ὁ κύριος πολεμεῖν τὸν Ἀμαλὴκ εἴρηται, καὶ ὅτι ἔπεσεν ὁ Ἀμαλὴκ οὐκ ἀρνήσεσθε. εἰ δὲ ἐν τῇ ἐνδόξῳ παρουσίᾳ τοῦ Χριστοῦ πολεμηθήσεσθαι τὸν Ἀμαλὴκ μόνον λέγεται, ποῖος καρπὸς ἔσται τοῦ λόγου, ὅς φησι· 'Κρυφίᾳ χειρὶ ὁ θεὸς πολεμεῖ τὸν Ἀμαλήκ.' Νοῆσαι δύνασθε ὅτι κρυφίᾳ δύναμις τοῦ θεοῦ γέγονε τῷ σταυρωθέντι Χριστῷ, ὃν καὶ τὰ δαιμόνια φρίσσει καὶ πᾶσαι ἁπλῶς αἱ ἀρχαὶ καὶ ἐξουσίαι τῆς γῆς. . |
. 8. "For the Lord said He would wage war against Amalek with concealed hand; and you will not deny that Amalek fell. But if it is said that only in the glorious advent of Christ war will be waged with Amalek, how great will the fulfilment of Scripture be which says, 'God will wage war against Amalek with concealed hand!' You can perceive that the concealed power of God was in the crucified Christ, before whom [daimonia] and all the principalities and powers of the earth tremble." . |
Thanks Peter. This is why I like to repeat that I know nothing about the ancient languages. I am indeed working from English translations made almost certainly by believing Christians, so that is a potential problem with any argument I make from the text.Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Sun Mar 26, 2023 2:46 pm The key phrase is this:
οὐδὲ τοῦτον ἀποφαίνομαι εἶναι
i.e., οὐδὲ (and neither) τοῦτον (he) ἀποφαίνομαι (I conclude) εἶναι (has come)
i.e., "I conclude that neither has he come."
Instead of declaring that a specific man is not the Christ, it says that the Christ has not come.
So a translation that avoids the interpretive trap set here is:
"but from the circumstance that Elijah has not yet come, I infer that neither has he [the Christ] come."
