Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho

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mlinssen
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Re: Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho

Post by mlinssen »

GakuseiDon wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:23 am So: what eye witness accounts and newspaper reports would have confirmed that Jesus was the Christ predicted in the Old Testament FOR YOU PERSONALLY?
Now that is very Christian of you, Don. I am sure that you can show yourself the way out
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho

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mlinssen wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:29 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:23 am So: what eye witness accounts and newspaper reports would have confirmed that Jesus was the Christ predicted in the Old Testament FOR YOU PERSONALLY?
Now that is very Christian of you, Don. I am sure that you can show yourself the way out
:confusedsmiley: I'm not a Christian. And it was your claim. Imagine you are providing advice to Justin Martyr in his argument with Trypho. What hypothetical eye witness account would you cite to prove to our hypothetical Trypho that the predicted Christ would be born of a virgin? What hypothetical newspaper report would prove that the predicted Christ was to be crucified?

Remember, you can't be like Justin Martyr and argue from the Scriptures! You have to convince Trypho that the Christ was to be born of a virgin and crucified using some hypothetical eye witness or newspaper account.
Last edited by GakuseiDon on Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
davidmartin
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Re: Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho

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Unite Isreal
I bore their bitterness because of selflessness, for the saving of my people and to inherit them and not leave unkept the promises to the first fathers, the ones I promised for the salvation of their seed
Smite enemies = restore world peace
And hatred will be lifted from the earth and together with jealousy it shall be drowned for what is not knowledge has died upon her because upon her the knowledge of the Lord has come
The Odes are aware of these prophecies. Their Messiah brings world peace by unleashing his knowledge on the earth even if he himself is killed he's begun the process of messianic redemption. This is a heterodox Judaic interpretation maybe, but not heretical. The apostle pushes this into the heretical with his theology as if he's washing his hands of Judaism and beating a path to the more lucrative gentile market with himself as the guru/kingpin. Justin could have pulled out the existence/memory of the Jewish messianic believers as evidence, but all he see's there are sects opposed to what he is saying so they are ignored, all he's got is the scriptural stuff to go on.
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Re: Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho

Post by dbz »

Schnelle, Udo (November 2005). "Apostle Paul: His Life and Theology". Baker Academic. p. 439.
Screenshot 2023-03-29 at 06-01-08 Apostle Paul - Google Books.png
Screenshot 2023-03-29 at 06-01-08 Apostle Paul - Google Books.png (230.84 KiB) Viewed 425 times
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mlinssen
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Re: Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho

Post by mlinssen »

GakuseiDon wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:57 am
mlinssen wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:29 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:23 am So: what eye witness accounts and newspaper reports would have confirmed that Jesus was the Christ predicted in the Old Testament FOR YOU PERSONALLY?
Now that is very Christian of you, Don. I am sure that you can show yourself the way out
:confusedsmiley: I'm not a Christian. And it was your claim. Imagine you are providing advice to Justin Martyr in his argument with Trypho. What hypothetical eye witness account would you cite to prove to our hypothetical Trypho that the predicted Christ would be born of a virgin? What hypothetical newspaper report would prove that the predicted Christ was to be crucified?

Remember, you can't be like Justin Martyr and argue from the Scriptures! You have to convince Trypho that the Christ was to be born of a virgin and crucified using some hypothetical eye witness or newspaper account.
Don, stop putting words in my mouth.
Martyr is full of rhetoric like this where he has Trypho make a valid objection, which in turn he buries under a ton of words but doesn't actually refute.
And Carrier has exploited that in turn, and you can't have that

End of story
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho

Post by GakuseiDon »

mlinssen wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:36 am Don, stop putting words in my mouth.
Martyr is full of rhetoric like this where he has Trypho make a valid objection, which in turn he buries under a ton of words but doesn't actually refute.
No, Justin Martyr refutes his character Trypho thoroughly (in his own eyes, of course) by showing through Scriptures that Christ was predicted to be born of a virgin, suffered and was crucified. Justin Martyr makes a thorough argument, using Scriptures to cover all the bases.

What argument by his Trypho character does Justin fail to refute? Could you quote him please?

Keep in mind: Imagine that Justin Martyr brought back via a time machine a group of modern scientists who could prove to the Jews of Justin's time, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that Jesus performed miracles and was born of a virgin. Would those Jews think "That means Jesus must have been the Christ!"

No!
GakuseiDon wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:23 am
mlinssen wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:36 pmYou prove Carrier's point Don: all that Justin does is to provide (false and feeble) examples of text that predicts the existence of a Christ - and he naturally skips the parts of the real Messianic predictions where the Messiah would unite all of Israel, smite its enemeies, restore world peace, and so on
I one million percent agree. Why do YOU think that Justin skipped the parts of the real Messianic predictions where the Messiah would unite all of Israel, smite its enemeies, restore world peace, and so on?
Christ, born of virgin, suffered and crucified -- that was the Christ that the Jews were expecting, according to Justin Martyr. Forget all that nonsense about the Messiah uniting all of Israel, smiting its enemies, restore world peace. You call that a Christ? Now, THIS is a Christ -- according to Justin "Crocodile Dundee" Martyr.

Is it any wonder that his Trypho character says "You invent a Christ for yourself!"?
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Re: Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho

Post by mlinssen »

GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:29 am Is it any wonder that his Trypho character says "You invent a Christ for yourself!"?
Are you perhaps a little daft, Don?

You are making Carrier's entire case. And mine. And Trypho's
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Re: Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho

Post by mlinssen »

dbz wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:07 am Schnelle, Udo (November 2005). "Apostle Paul: His Life and Theology". Baker Academic. p. 439.Screenshot 2023-03-29 at 06-01-08 Apostle Paul - Google Books.png
That's a good and appropriate First paragrap; that last one is very gratuitous
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho

Post by GakuseiDon »

mlinssen wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:35 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:29 am Is it any wonder that his Trypho character says "You invent a Christ for yourself!"?
Are you perhaps a little daft, Don?

You are making Carrier's entire case. And mine. And Trypho's
Excellent. Always good to end a discussion on a point of agreement!
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mlinssen
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Re: Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho

Post by mlinssen »

GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:44 am
mlinssen wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:35 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:29 am Is it any wonder that his Trypho character says "You invent a Christ for yourself!"?
Are you perhaps a little daft, Don?

You are making Carrier's entire case. And mine. And Trypho's
Excellent. Always good to end a discussion on a point of agreement!
LOL. This certainly is one of your not so successful threads Don.
You have to know which battles to pick, unless you just like to fight for the heck of it. A hint: if Carrier moves on to the virgin birth "as refuted by Trypho" then prepare for an exact same round. Sweet Jus knew how to hit the max on the bullshit bingo meter, but in the end he indeed had just as much to go on as everyone else before and after regarding the historicity of Geewsus or Krist

Nowt
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