Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho

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John T
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Re: Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho

Post by John T »

Perhaps a quick review of history for those not familiar with the subject is in order.

Justin Martyr (d. 165 CE) was a philosopher before he became a Christian. His understanding of the logos and its purpose, as explained in Plato's dialogue Timaeus made him think that even Socrates should be considered a pre-Christian because his logic was so sound. (1 Apology 46). That Christ, not Jesus was the Logos of God. "Justin held to the view that Christ was a preexistent divine being who was, in his words, the "first begotten of God" (1 Apology 46), that is the "first begotten of God." ...How Jesus Became God. pg.330-331 by Bart Ehramn.

Justin and Trypho were not arguing about the earthly existence of Jesus but rather how the logos (that is as an Angel of God) could become the Jewish messiah, i.e. Jesus.

Some would say Justin's understanding of the logos was used as the framework for the development of the Trinity but it was actually closer to Arianism.

To over look this is either done out of ignorance or needed to justify a crack pot theory. The sophistry of Carrier in; Jesus in Outer Space, comes to mind.
Secret Alias
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Re: Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho

Post by Secret Alias »

What is interesting is that the same arguments get turned around against the Marcionites. The Marcionites denied the Jewish prophets predicted the same figure as their Christ (or at least used different prophesies). The Marcionite angle has legs. But Justin repeatedly identified "Christ" as being born of a Virgin. Surely the implication is that the one born of a virgin had historical existence.

1. I think a case can be made that Justin's writings were interpolated.
2. But I think Justin is a bad witness for the non-existence of Jesus because even if someone added the references to the Virgin Birth it's hard to rescue the sandwich once it spends a lot of time in the garbage can.
Giuseppe
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Re: Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho

Post by Giuseppe »

It is more simple than one may think. If Justin replied by saying that the Christians didn't believe in 'empty fables' then by inference Trypho was considering the gospel stories as 'empty fables' (κενοῖς μύθοις), or at least that was the sense attributed by Justin on the Trypho's words 'You invent a Christ for yourselves'.

Now, can a historicist label the Gospels as 'empty fables' ?
I think that a historicist may label the Gospels as 'poor stories', not 'empty fables'.

κενός μύθος seems to be used precisely to give no room for not even a minimal iota of truth.
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Re: Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho

Post by Secret Alias »

I think you're making up modern categories to distract you from the naked text.

Is Justin saying that Jesus never existed?

No.

Can the text be manipulated to seem to testify to this?

Only if someone doesn't spend the time reading the CONTEXT of the debate.
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Re: Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho

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Justin believes in a supernatural "Christ" who came down from heaven to "trick" the world into thinking he was a meek man in order to be crucified and deliver the souls who had remained imprisoned there from before the time of Moses and then, and only then i.e. after his resurrection, reveal his true glory to the ruler of the underworld like a Broadway musical set to one of the Psalms.

All true.

But he did this by coming into the womb of a Virgin and presumably existing or seeming to exist in "historical reality."
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Re: Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho

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If you get rid of bit about "born from a Virgin" (and the musical set to one of the Psalms) you've got Marcionism.
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Re: Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho

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Secret Alias wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:24 am If you get rid of bit about "born from a Virgin" (and the musical set to one of the Psalms) you've got Marcionism.
not only that. Justin insisted on John the Baptist as witness of the first apparition of Jesus. Marcion had no witnesses at all about the first apparition (really, a descent) of Jesus.

Unless that witness was Paul, for Marcion (not coincidentially, the Gerasene demonic saw Jesus in Capernaum, in the Gospel of Barnabas).
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John T
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Re: Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho

Post by John T »

Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:28 am
John T wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:33 am As far as fact checking Carrier's translation of Greek, I'm not going to waste my time but trust Roberts-Donaldson translation as provided by: Early Christian Writings.
You'd have to fact check my translation of the Greek because I was the one who supplied it, not Carrier.

I don't blindly trust the translation on my website. Why would you?
Whether Roberts-Donaldson translated it into English or Peter Kirby. I would trust both over Carrier any day. :cheers:
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Re: Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho

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Trypho's accusations (in order) Justin's replies (in order)
“But Christ — if He has indeed been born, and exists anywhere — is unknown, and does not even know Himself”; “I excuse and forgive you, my friend, for you know not what you say, but have been persuaded by teachers who do not understand the Scriptures; and you speak, like a diviner, whatever comes into your mind. But if you are willing to listen to an account of Him, how we have not been deceived, and shall not cease to confess Him — although men's reproaches be heaped upon us, although the most terrible tyrant compel us to deny Him — I shall prove to you as you stand here that we have not believed empty fables, or words without any foundation but words filled with the Spirit of God, and big with power, and flourishing with grace.”
“and has no power until Elias come to anoint Him”; Of these and such like words written by the prophets, O Trypho, some have reference to the first advent of Christ, in which He is preached as inglorious, obscure, and of mortal appearance: but others had reference to His second advent, when He shall appear in glory and above the clouds; and your nation shall see and know Him whom they have pierced, as Hosea, one of the twelve prophets, and Daniel, foretold. (Chapter 14)

If therefore Scripture compels you to admit that two advents of Christ were predicted to take place — one in which He would appear suffering, and dishonoured, and without comeliness; but the other in which He would come glorious and Judge of all, as has been made manifest in many of the fore-cited passages — shall we not suppose that the word of God has proclaimed that Elijah shall be the precursor of the great and terrible day, that is, of His second advent? (Chapter 49)
“, and make Him manifest to all”; And, accordingly, our Lord in His teaching proclaimed that this very thing would take place, saying that Elijah would also come. And we know that this shall take place when our Lord Jesus Christ shall come in glory from heaven; whose first manifestation the Spirit of God who was in Elijah preceded as herald in [the person of] John, a prophet among your nation; after whom no other prophet appeared among you. He cried, as he sat by the river Jordan: 'I baptize you with water to repentance; but He that is stronger than I shall come, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor, and will gather the wheat into the barn; but the chaff He will burn up with unquenchable fire.' Matthew 3:11-12 And this very prophet your king Herod had shut up in prison; and when his birthday was celebrated, and the niece of the same Herod by her dancing had pleased him, he told her to ask whatever she pleased. Then the mother of the maiden instigated her to ask the head of John, who was in prison; and having asked it, [Herod] sent and ordered the head of John to be brought in on a charger. Wherefore also our Christ said, [when He was] on earth, to those who were affirming that Elijah must come before Christ: 'Elijah shall come, and restore all things; but I say unto you, that Elijah has already come, and they knew him not, but have done to him whatsoever they chose.' Matthew 17:12 And it is written, 'Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them about John the Baptist.' (Chapter 49)
“And you, having accepted a groundless report, invent a Christ for yourselves, and for his sake are inconsiderately perishing.” For that expression of Isaiah 'He shall take the power of Damascus and spoils of Samaria,' foretold that the power of the evil demon that dwelt in Damascus should be overcome by Christ as soon as He was born; and this is proved to have happened. For the Magi, who were held in bondage for the commission of all evil deeds through the power of that demon, by coming to worship Christ, shows that they have revolted from that dominion which held them captive; and this [dominion] the Scripture has showed us to reside in Damascus. (Chapter 78)

The beginning and end of this supposed chiasm seem artificial.

It seems better to suggest that this argument is broached here and ended in chapter 49.

Trypho's accusations (in order) (Chapter 8) Justin's replies (in order) (Chapter 9 to 49)
“But Christ — if He has indeed been born, and exists anywhere — is unknown, and does not even know Himself and has no power until Elias come to anoint Him”; “I excuse and forgive you, my friend, for you know not what you say, but have been persuaded by teachers who do not understand the Scriptures; and you speak, like a diviner, whatever comes into your mind. But if you are willing to listen to an account of Him, how we have not been deceived, and shall not cease to confess Him — although men's reproaches be heaped upon us, although the most terrible tyrant compel us to deny Him — I shall prove to you as you stand here that we have not believed empty fables, or words without any foundation but words filled with the Spirit of God, and big with power, and flourishing with grace.” (Chapter 9)
“, and make Him manifest to all”; Of these and such like words written by the prophets, O Trypho, some have reference to the first advent of Christ, in which He is preached as inglorious, obscure, and of mortal appearance: but others had reference to His second advent, when He shall appear in glory and above the clouds; and your nation shall see and know Him whom they have pierced, as Hosea, one of the twelve prophets, and Daniel, foretold. (Chapter 14)

If therefore Scripture compels you to admit that two advents of Christ were predicted to take place — one in which He would appear suffering, and dishonoured, and without comeliness; but the other in which He would come glorious and Judge of all, as has been made manifest in many of the fore-cited passages — shall we not suppose that the word of God has proclaimed that Elijah shall be the precursor of the great and terrible day, that is, of His second advent? (Chapter 49)
“And you, having accepted a groundless report, invent a Christ for yourselves, and for his sake are inconsiderately perishing.” And, accordingly, our Lord in His teaching proclaimed that this very thing would take place, saying that Elijah would also come. And we know that this shall take place when our Lord Jesus Christ shall come in glory from heaven; whose first manifestation the Spirit of God who was in Elijah preceded as herald in [the person of] John, a prophet among your nation; after whom no other prophet appeared among you. He cried, as he sat by the river Jordan: 'I baptize you with water to repentance; but He that is stronger than I shall come, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor, and will gather the wheat into the barn; but the chaff He will burn up with unquenchable fire.' Matthew 3:11-12 And this very prophet your king Herod had shut up in prison; and when his birthday was celebrated, and the niece of the same Herod by her dancing had pleased him, he told her to ask whatever she pleased. Then the mother of the maiden instigated her to ask the head of John, who was in prison; and having asked it, [Herod] sent and ordered the head of John to be brought in on a charger. Wherefore also our Christ said, [when He was] on earth, to those who were affirming that Elijah must come before Christ: 'Elijah shall come, and restore all things; but I say unto you, that Elijah has already come, and they knew him not, but have done to him whatsoever they chose.' Matthew 17:12 And it is written, 'Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them about John the Baptist.' (Chapter 49)

In short, Justin says that the stories that he's received are not fables, that there are two advents of Christ, that the first advent had the Spirit of God who was in Elijah as a herald in the person of John, and that the second advent in glory will have Elijah as the precursor.
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Re: Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho

Post by Secret Alias »

The idea that the Dialogue has lacunae and interpolations is standard in the discussion of Justin Martyr.
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