Re: Richard Carrier's decisive point on Justin's Trypho
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:43 am
Investigating the roots of western civilization (ye olde BC&H forum of IIDB lives on...)
https://earlywritings.com/forum/
What on earth do you mean? Justin then spends the rest of the Dialogue 'proving' that Christians haven't believed groundless stories. He does that by showing Trypho that the Scriptures predict that Christ will suffer, be crucified, be born of a virgin, be raised after three days -- everything that Christians claim. Justin's Trypho claims that Christians have made this all up about Christ, "invented a Christ for themselves". Justin shows that the Scriptures -- "words filled with the Spirit of God, and big with power" -- validates everything that Christians claim about Christ. Everything he promised to do!mlinssen wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:27 amThe answer allegedly is in CHAPTER IX -- THE CHRISTIANS HAVE NOT BELIEVED GROUNDLESS STORIES.
viewtopic.php?p=41232#p41232
And that chapter starts with
"I excuse and forgive you, my friend," I said. "For you know not what you say, but have been persuaded by teachers who do not understand the Scriptures; and you speak, like a diviner whatever comes into your mind. But if you are willing to listen to an account of Him, how we have not been deceived, and shall not cease to confess Him,--although men's reproaches be heaped upon us, although the most terrible tyrant compel us to deny Him,--I shall prove to you as you stand here that we have not believed empty fables, or words without any foundation but words filled with the Spirit of God, and big with power, and flourishing with grace."
and ends with
And when we were come to that place, where there are stone seats on both sides, those with Trypho, having seated themselves on the one side, conversed with each other, some one of them having thrown in a remark about the war waged in Judaea.
And Justin doesn't do anything, as usual he makes empty promises and then distracts, deflects, and never returns to it again unless it is to reiterate his empty promises. He does the same thing with the virgin birth being predicted, literally, in the Tanakh. It's all plain rhetoric and mere bullshit bingo, it's so genuinely Christian
I would have expected ἀγαθός as the standard equivalent for טוב[A]ll of the Hebrew TOV (טוֹבָה) gets translated with Xrhstos
Secret Alias wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:01 pmI would have expected ἀγαθός as the standard equivalent for טוב[A]ll of the Hebrew TOV (טוֹבָה) gets translated with Xrhstos
Apparently it is καλός. Don't know where you are getting your information.
Chrestos means "useful" or maybe "right."
When scholars of early Judaism, who have cast about for any instances of the word “messiah” in Hellenistic— and Roman—period literature, find an unparalleled cache of such instances in the letters of Paul, New Testament scholars reply that Paul says it but does not mean it, that for him χριστός means “Christ,” not “messiah.”
--Novenson, Matthew V. ( 2012). Christ among the Messiahs: Christ Language in Paul and Messiah Language in Ancient Judaism. New York: Oxford University Press.
Strong #: 2909 ‑ κρείττων (krite'‑tohn); 19 ‑ ἀγαθωσύνη (ag‑ath‑o‑soo'‑nay); 39 ‑ ἅγιον (hag'‑ee‑on); 227 ‑ ἀληθής (al‑ay‑thace'); 228 ‑ ἀληθινός (al‑ay‑thee‑nos'); 701 ‑ ἀρεστός (ar‑es‑tos'); 791 ‑ ἀστεῖος (as‑ti'‑os); 957 ‑ βελτίων (bel‑tee'‑on); 1343 ‑ δικαιοσύνη (dik‑ah‑yos‑oo'‑nay); 1588 ‑ ἐκλεκτός (ek‑lek‑tos'); 4096 ‑ πιότης (pee‑ot'‑ace); 5485 ‑ χάρις (khar'‑ece); 5543 ‑ χρηστός (khrase‑tos'); 5544 ‑ χρηστότης (khray‑stot'‑ace); 5611 ‑ ὡραῖος (ho‑rah'‑yos); 2234 ‑ ἡδέως (hay‑deh'‑oce); 18 ‑ ἀγαθός (ag‑ath‑os'); 19 ‑ ἀγαθωσύνη (ag‑ath‑o‑soo'‑nay); 2570 ‑ καλός (kal‑os');
- Greek Equivalent Words:
Frequency Lists
Verse Results
"Strong's #2896 - טוֹב - Old Testament Hebrew Lexical Dictionary". StudyLight.org.
Nah 1:7
(BSB)
The LORD is good, a stronghold in the day of distress; He cares for those who trust in Him.
(THGNT) (THOT)
ט֣וֹב יְהוָ֔ה לְמָע֖וֹז בְּי֣וֹם צָרָ֑ה וְיֹדֵ֖עַ חֹ֥סֵי בֽוֹ׃
(LXX)
χρηστὸς κύριος τοῖς ὑπομένουσιν αὐτὸν ἐν ἡμέρᾳ θλίψεως καὶ γινώσκων τοὺς εὐλαβουμένους αὐτόν·
"χρηστ* in STEP Bible, study tools, 280 languages | BSB". www.stepbible.org.
Precisely. He alleges that Christ was predicted to exist, via false and fabricated "prophecies" that are no prophecies at all and mostly depend on mistranslation and interpretation in order to be twisted and turned into the Churchian way.GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:59 pmWhat on earth do you mean? Justin then spends the rest of the Dialogue 'proving' that Christians haven't believed groundless stories. He does that by showing Trypho that the Scriptures predict that Christ will suffer, be crucified, be born of a virgin, be raised after three days -- everything that Christians claim. Justin's Trypho claims that Christians have made this all up about Christ, "invented a Christ for themselves". Justin shows that the Scriptures -- "words filled with the Spirit of God, and big with power" -- validates everything that Christians claim about Christ. Everything he promised to do!mlinssen wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:27 amThe answer allegedly is in CHAPTER IX -- THE CHRISTIANS HAVE NOT BELIEVED GROUNDLESS STORIES.
viewtopic.php?p=41232#p41232
And that chapter starts with
"I excuse and forgive you, my friend," I said. "For you know not what you say, but have been persuaded by teachers who do not understand the Scriptures; and you speak, like a diviner whatever comes into your mind. But if you are willing to listen to an account of Him, how we have not been deceived, and shall not cease to confess Him,--although men's reproaches be heaped upon us, although the most terrible tyrant compel us to deny Him,--I shall prove to you as you stand here that we have not believed empty fables, or words without any foundation but words filled with the Spirit of God, and big with power, and flourishing with grace."
and ends with
And when we were come to that place, where there are stone seats on both sides, those with Trypho, having seated themselves on the one side, conversed with each other, some one of them having thrown in a remark about the war waged in Judaea.
And Justin doesn't do anything, as usual he makes empty promises and then distracts, deflects, and never returns to it again unless it is to reiterate his empty promises. He does the same thing with the virgin birth being predicted, literally, in the Tanakh. It's all plain rhetoric and mere bullshit bingo, it's so genuinely Christian
What in your view is Justin actually lacking? What doesn't he do?
I provided a link - as usual - to that very post]Secret Alias wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:01 pmI would have expected ἀγαθός as the standard equivalent for טוב[A]ll of the Hebrew TOV (טוֹבָה) gets translated with Xrhstos
Apparently it is καλός. Don't know where you are getting your information.
Chrestos means "useful" or maybe "right."
There is no such thing as "autograph MSS": all this consists of made up stories whose redaction was limited not by something factual or historical, but merely by what had been produced of that story prior to its new version. Think of Harry potter: you can't rewrite that story and place its scenerey on the moon or in Nazi Germany, but what you can do is continue the story with what allegedly happened after Harry defeated Voldemort (which is precisely what Mark did with inventing the resurrection)dbz wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:30 pmSecret Alias wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:01 pmI would have expected ἀγαθός as the standard equivalent for טוב[A]ll of the Hebrew TOV (טוֹבָה) gets translated with Xrhstos
Apparently it is καλός. Don't know where you are getting your information.
Chrestos means "useful" or maybe "right."When scholars of early Judaism, who have cast about for any instances of the word “messiah” in Hellenistic— and Roman—period literature, find an unparalleled cache of such instances in the letters of Paul, New Testament scholars reply that Paul says it but does not mean it, that for him χριστός means “Christ,” not “messiah.”
--Novenson, Matthew V. ( 2012). Christ among the Messiahs: Christ Language in Paul and Messiah Language in Ancient Judaism. New York: Oxford University Press.After all the autograph MSS are not extant and may of originally made it explicit.
- So the scholarly consensus is that for Paul—Christ==Good ?
Paul never calls second-god the christ/messiah of the Jews. Perhaps Jesus evolved from the "Good Redeemer" of middle-platonism.
Contra this viewpoint, Novenson argues that Paul does use messiah language, see:If canonical gMark is a redaction of prior text, then any references to Yesus being the christ/messiah of the Jews is explicable as being contra Marcion.
- Godfrey, Neil. "Christ Among the Messiahs (Novenson)". Vridar.
he naturally skips the parts of the real Messianic predictions where the Messiah would unite all of Israel, smite its enemeies, restore world peace, and so on
Certainly true of AP's gospel. If one refers to the Odes' gospel they are one covenant not two, the Messiah of Isreal connection is therefor implicit 'BUT'Paul never calls second-god the christ/messiah of the Jews. Perhaps Jesus evolved from the "Good Redeemer" of middle-platonism.
That is literally the "newspaper reporter's Jesus" fallacy that I've been pointing out here for the last few years.mlinssen wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:36 pmPrecisely. He alleges that Christ was predicted to exist, via false and fabricated "prophecies" that are no prophecies at all and mostly depend on mistranslation and interpretation in order to be twisted and turned into the Churchian way.GakuseiDon wrote:What on earth do you mean? Justin then spends the rest of the Dialogue 'proving' that Christians haven't believed groundless stories. He does that by showing Trypho that the Scriptures predict that Christ will suffer, be crucified, be born of a virgin, be raised after three days -- everything that Christians claim. Justin's Trypho claims that Christians have made this all up about Christ, "invented a Christ for themselves". Justin shows that the Scriptures -- "words filled with the Spirit of God, and big with power" -- validates everything that Christians claim about Christ. Everything he promised to do!
What in your view is Justin actually lacking? What doesn't he do?
But does Justin demonstrate that Christ exists? Does he provide eye witness accounts, newspaper reports, great and grand statues erected in his name, to his honour, a basilicum perhaps, a small temple, or even a baptism place?
None of that, absolutely no evidence is produced of the existence of Christ
I one million percent agree. Why do YOU think that Justin skipped the parts of the real Messianic predictions where the Messiah would unite all of Israel, smite its enemeies, restore world peace, and so on?mlinssen wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:36 pmYou prove Carrier's point Don: all that Justin does is to provide (false and feeble) examples of text that predicts the existence of a Christ - and he naturally skips the parts of the real Messianic predictions where the Messiah would unite all of Israel, smite its enemeies, restore world peace, and so on