On the historicity of Jesus – Freethinker.nl

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
dbz
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On the historicity of Jesus – Freethinker.nl

Post by dbz »

In 2020, Lendering's article . . . Jesus Mythicism: Better no Jesus than a Jewish Jesus, published on the website of the Royal Dutch Historical Society. Lendering links anti-Semitism to Jesus mythicism without argument: "To explain how Christianity could have arisen without Jesus, the Jesus mythists often referred to ancient myths, such as the resurrection of Adonis and Osiris. These ideas were popular at the time with anti-Semitic thinkers such as Bruno Bauer ."

How desperate and far-fetched this argument is for the current debate can be seen not only from the extraordinarily tortuous connection of three things in the quote above, but also from the fact that the two major modern scholarly defenses of Jesus mythicism, Richard Carrier's book and Earl Doherty's book, together about 1500 pages of reading material, don't even let Bruno Bauer pass by. Bauer is not even mentioned in a footnote! They don't even know him, or see no relevance to what he has to say. Which indeed again shows that Lendering has no idea what modern mythicism is about. He refuses to read the relevant books and comment on them. Talk about muddled things up!


Re: On the historicity of Jesus
Message by Rereformed » 23 Mar 2023. Freethinker.nl [Google Translate: Dutch —> English]
Jona Lendering, a self-described "science educator" who enjoys using the Internet, has written a series of ten short blog essays in which the first seven focus on what is known as the jesus mythicism, the view that Jesus was not a historical person, but wholly a myth. This view has become very popular among unbelievers in recent years. Lending essays are textbook examples of how a historian can be guilty of dubious rhetoric on a controversial subject. Unfortunately, Jona Lendering sees only that history as a science is being destroyed by the deluge of pseudoscience on the Internet, but he does not realize how much his own assertion about the historicity of Jesus is based on rhetoric. His assertiveness is hardly justified by his brief, superficial and frequently incorrect argumentation. Jona Lendering despises mythicism so much that he prefaces every article"This article is not about the mythical Jesus, although I have a few things to say about it. The actual subject is 'the suicide of archaeology'." Although the articles do have mythicism as their subject, and their 'actual subject' is only given a short cry for help in the last three increasingly shorter articles, Lendering has given it the title "Jesus, Myths and Education". He has clearly considered that to reply to mythicism would be to take it seriously, which he cannot do. Actually, this is not surprising. Anyone who ( this internet page) read through will see how much the view that Jesus is historical is defended with tons of rhetoric. The denier of a historical Jesus is showered with scorn, ridicule and insults, while a book criticizing Jesus mythicism with arguments did not even exist until recently.

This last fact is therefore a dangerous trap for any scientist who wants to elaborate on it. Since such a scholar typically has not explored the position of the opposing side or only half-baked, while on the other hand he is armed with absolute self-confidence in his own position, he soon falls miserably.


Jonah Lendering and Jesus Mythicism
Message by Reformed » 07 Mar 2015. Freethinker.nl [Google Translate: Dutch —> English]
  • This commentary on articles by Jona Lendering is written by Albert Vollbehr
nightshadetwine
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Re: On the historicity of Jesus – Freethinker.nl

Post by nightshadetwine »

dbz wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:20 am
In 2020, Lendering's article . . . Jesus Mythicism: Better no Jesus than a Jewish Jesus, published on the website of the Royal Dutch Historical Society. Lendering links anti-Semitism to Jesus mythicism without argument: "To explain how Christianity could have arisen without Jesus, the Jesus mythists often referred to ancient myths, such as the resurrection of Adonis and Osiris. These ideas were popular at the time with anti-Semitic thinkers such as Bruno Bauer ."
Although I think there was more likely a historical Jesus, this argument is pretty bad. I don't doubt that anti-Semites would want to try to remove Jesus from his Jewish context but to try to associate anyone who questions whether Jesus existed with anti-Semitism is ridiculous. I'm sure I saw a recent blogpost somewhere by an apologist trying to associate comparing Jesus to other Greco-Roman deities with anti-Semitism. These people are desperate to not have anyone question the consensus. I'm someone who thinks the stories about Jesus are likely influenced by deities like Osiris, Dionysus, Romulus, Heracles, Asclepius, etc. but it's not to try to remove Jesus from his Jewish context. You don't have to be a mythicist to think this. The texts of the New Testament are written in Greek by Hellenized Jews so it's not surprising to see both Jewish and Greco-Roman or "pagan" influences.
Last edited by nightshadetwine on Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Giuseppe
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Re: On the historicity of Jesus – Freethinker.nl

Post by Giuseppe »

Im my view, mythicists are too much disturbing in their basic claim for any kind of established power. Which is the reason why mythicism was not really exploited even by anti-Christian regimes.
lclapshaw
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Re: On the historicity of Jesus – Freethinker.nl

Post by lclapshaw »

nightshadetwine wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:30 am
dbz wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:20 am
In 2020, Lendering's article . . . Jesus Mythicism: Better no Jesus than a Jewish Jesus, published on the website of the Royal Dutch Historical Society. Lendering links anti-Semitism to Jesus mythicism without argument: "To explain how Christianity could have arisen without Jesus, the Jesus mythists often referred to ancient myths, such as the resurrection of Adonis and Osiris. These ideas were popular at the time with anti-Semitic thinkers such as Bruno Bauer ."
Although I think there was more likely a historical Jesus, this argument is pretty bad. I don't doubt that anti-Semites would want to try to remove Jesus from his Jewish context but to try to associate anyone who questions whether Jesus existed with anti-Semitism is ridiculous. I'm sure I saw a recent blogpost somewhere by an apologist trying to associate comparing Jesus to other Greco-Roman deities with ant-Semitism. These people are desperate to not have anyone question the consensus. I'm someone who thinks the stories about Jesus are likely influenced by deities like Osiris, Dionysus, Romulus, Heracles, Asclepius, etc. but it's not to try to remove Jesus from his Jewish context. You don't have to be a mythicist to think this. The texts of the New Testament are written in Greek by Hellenized Jews so it's not surprising to see both Jewish and Greco-Roman or "pagan" influences.
Just out of curiosity, why do you think that Hellenized Jews wrote the NT? Why not just Greeks and Romans?
nightshadetwine
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Re: On the historicity of Jesus – Freethinker.nl

Post by nightshadetwine »

lclapshaw wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:51 am
nightshadetwine wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:30 am
dbz wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:20 am
In 2020, Lendering's article . . . Jesus Mythicism: Better no Jesus than a Jewish Jesus, published on the website of the Royal Dutch Historical Society. Lendering links anti-Semitism to Jesus mythicism without argument: "To explain how Christianity could have arisen without Jesus, the Jesus mythists often referred to ancient myths, such as the resurrection of Adonis and Osiris. These ideas were popular at the time with anti-Semitic thinkers such as Bruno Bauer ."
Although I think there was more likely a historical Jesus, this argument is pretty bad. I don't doubt that anti-Semites would want to try to remove Jesus from his Jewish context but to try to associate anyone who questions whether Jesus existed with anti-Semitism is ridiculous. I'm sure I saw a recent blogpost somewhere by an apologist trying to associate comparing Jesus to other Greco-Roman deities with ant-Semitism. These people are desperate to not have anyone question the consensus. I'm someone who thinks the stories about Jesus are likely influenced by deities like Osiris, Dionysus, Romulus, Heracles, Asclepius, etc. but it's not to try to remove Jesus from his Jewish context. You don't have to be a mythicist to think this. The texts of the New Testament are written in Greek by Hellenized Jews so it's not surprising to see both Jewish and Greco-Roman or "pagan" influences.
Just out of curiosity, why do you think that Hellenized Jews wrote the NT? Why not just Greeks and Romans?
I guess because they quote from the Hebrew scriptures and seem to be familiar with Jewish customs and religion. I guess it's possible some of them weren't Jewish. Why, you don't think they were Jewish?
lclapshaw
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Re: On the historicity of Jesus – Freethinker.nl

Post by lclapshaw »

nightshadetwine wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:45 pm
lclapshaw wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:51 am
nightshadetwine wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:30 am
dbz wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:20 am
In 2020, Lendering's article . . . Jesus Mythicism: Better no Jesus than a Jewish Jesus, published on the website of the Royal Dutch Historical Society. Lendering links anti-Semitism to Jesus mythicism without argument: "To explain how Christianity could have arisen without Jesus, the Jesus mythists often referred to ancient myths, such as the resurrection of Adonis and Osiris. These ideas were popular at the time with anti-Semitic thinkers such as Bruno Bauer ."
Although I think there was more likely a historical Jesus, this argument is pretty bad. I don't doubt that anti-Semites would want to try to remove Jesus from his Jewish context but to try to associate anyone who questions whether Jesus existed with anti-Semitism is ridiculous. I'm sure I saw a recent blogpost somewhere by an apologist trying to associate comparing Jesus to other Greco-Roman deities with ant-Semitism. These people are desperate to not have anyone question the consensus. I'm someone who thinks the stories about Jesus are likely influenced by deities like Osiris, Dionysus, Romulus, Heracles, Asclepius, etc. but it's not to try to remove Jesus from his Jewish context. You don't have to be a mythicist to think this. The texts of the New Testament are written in Greek by Hellenized Jews so it's not surprising to see both Jewish and Greco-Roman or "pagan" influences.
Just out of curiosity, why do you think that Hellenized Jews wrote the NT? Why not just Greeks and Romans?
I guess because they quote from the Hebrew scriptures and seem to be familiar with Jewish customs and religion. I guess it's possible some of them weren't Jewish. Why, you don't think they were Jewish?
But nothing concrete, just because Hebrew scriptures were used.

Right?
nightshadetwine
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Re: On the historicity of Jesus – Freethinker.nl

Post by nightshadetwine »

lclapshaw wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:58 pm
nightshadetwine wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:45 pm
lclapshaw wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:51 am
nightshadetwine wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:30 am
dbz wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:20 am
Although I think there was more likely a historical Jesus, this argument is pretty bad. I don't doubt that anti-Semites would want to try to remove Jesus from his Jewish context but to try to associate anyone who questions whether Jesus existed with anti-Semitism is ridiculous. I'm sure I saw a recent blogpost somewhere by an apologist trying to associate comparing Jesus to other Greco-Roman deities with ant-Semitism. These people are desperate to not have anyone question the consensus. I'm someone who thinks the stories about Jesus are likely influenced by deities like Osiris, Dionysus, Romulus, Heracles, Asclepius, etc. but it's not to try to remove Jesus from his Jewish context. You don't have to be a mythicist to think this. The texts of the New Testament are written in Greek by Hellenized Jews so it's not surprising to see both Jewish and Greco-Roman or "pagan" influences.
Just out of curiosity, why do you think that Hellenized Jews wrote the NT? Why not just Greeks and Romans?
I guess because they quote from the Hebrew scriptures and seem to be familiar with Jewish customs and religion. I guess it's possible some of them weren't Jewish. Why, you don't think they were Jewish?
But nothing concrete, just because Hebrew scriptures were used.

Right?
Pretty much yeah. I don't think there's many things we can say for sure about the authors of the NT texts or almost anything when it comes to early Christianity haha.
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mlinssen
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Re: On the historicity of Jesus – Freethinker.nl

Post by mlinssen »

nightshadetwine wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:05 pm
lclapshaw wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:58 pm
nightshadetwine wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:45 pm
lclapshaw wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:51 am
nightshadetwine wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:30 am
Although I think there was more likely a historical Jesus, this argument is pretty bad. I don't doubt that anti-Semites would want to try to remove Jesus from his Jewish context but to try to associate anyone who questions whether Jesus existed with anti-Semitism is ridiculous. I'm sure I saw a recent blogpost somewhere by an apologist trying to associate comparing Jesus to other Greco-Roman deities with ant-Semitism. These people are desperate to not have anyone question the consensus. I'm someone who thinks the stories about Jesus are likely influenced by deities like Osiris, Dionysus, Romulus, Heracles, Asclepius, etc. but it's not to try to remove Jesus from his Jewish context. You don't have to be a mythicist to think this. The texts of the New Testament are written in Greek by Hellenized Jews so it's not surprising to see both Jewish and Greco-Roman or "pagan" influences.
Just out of curiosity, why do you think that Hellenized Jews wrote the NT? Why not just Greeks and Romans?
I guess because they quote from the Hebrew scriptures and seem to be familiar with Jewish customs and religion. I guess it's possible some of them weren't Jewish. Why, you don't think they were Jewish?
But nothing concrete, just because Hebrew scriptures were used.

Right?
Pretty much yeah. I don't think there's many things we can say for sure about the authors of the NT texts or almost anything when it comes to early Christianity haha.
Oh but we can; we can say with guaranteed certainty that the use of Hebrew scripture was fake and false. Ask any Judaic whether they acknowledge the Christian Messiah, and they'll laugh hard in the best case scenario: Jesus' achievements are just grabbed from text, most of it mistranslated, and the vast majority had nothing to do with what the Judaic Messiah would bring about

My favourite prophecy is that of the Bethlehem massacre:

[ETA: tidied up the formatting alone]

Matt 2:17 Then what was spoken through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
Τότε ἐπληρώθη τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Ἱερεμίου τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος·
Matt 2:18 “A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping [for] her children, and refusing consolation, because they are no more.”
φωνὴ ἐν ̔Ραμᾶ ἠκούσθη, κλαυθμὸς καὶ ὀδυρμὸς πολύς, ̔Ραχὴλ κλαίουσα τὰ τέκνα αὐτῆς, καὶ οὐκ ἤθελεν παρακληθῆναι ὅτι οὐκ εἰσίν.

Jer 31:15 This is what the LORD says: “A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children, [and] refusing consolation, because they are no more.”
Οὕτως εἶπεν κύριος Φωνὴ ἐν Ραμα ἠκούσθη/ θρήνου καὶ κλαυθμοῦ καὶ ὀδυρμοῦ· Ραχηλ ἀποκλαιομένη οὐκ ἤθελεν παύσασθαι ἐπὶ τοῖς υἱοῖς αὐτῆς, ὅτι οὐκ εἰσίν.
Jer 31:16 This is what the LORD says: “Keep your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for the reward for your work will come, declares the LORD. Then [your children] will return from the land of the enemy.
οὕτως εἶπεν κύριος Διαλιπέτω ἡ φωνή σου, ἀπὸ κλαυθμοῦ καὶ οἱ ὀφθαλμοί σου ἀπὸ δακρύων σου ὅτι ἔστιν μισθὸς τοῖς σοῖς ἔργοις, καὶ ἐπιστρέψουσιν ἐκ γῆς ἐχθρῶν,
Jer 31:17 So there is hope for your future, declares the LORD, and your children will return to their own land.
μόνιμον τοῖς σοῖς τέκνοις.



Christianity is the phoniest and fakest religion on earth
Last edited by mlinssen on Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
davidmartin
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Re: On the historicity of Jesus – Freethinker.nl

Post by davidmartin »

mlinssen wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:21 pm Christianity is the phoniest and fakest religion on earth
It's not too late to change your mind and become the next big shot Christian animal in the evangelical zoo
sign up right away and see your bank balance go from Crucified to Corinthianed!
https://www.kingdombuilders.academy/

"Kingdom Builders Academy is recognized as the #1 training program in the world for Christian influencers, having turned thousands of "everyday Christians" into bestselling authors, big stage speakers, six-figure coaches, and global influencers who shape the culture for Christ"

"Tamara Lowe is a motivator who empowers others to succeed.” GEORGE W. BUSH
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mlinssen
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Re: On the historicity of Jesus – Freethinker.nl

Post by mlinssen »

davidmartin wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:31 pm
mlinssen wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:21 pm Christianity is the phoniest and fakest religion on earth
It's not too late to change your mind and become the next big shot Christian animal in the evangelical zoo
sign up right away and see your bank balance go from Crucified to Corinthianed!
https://www.kingdombuilders.academy/

"Kingdom Builders Academy is recognized as the #1 training program in the world for Christian influencers, having turned thousands of "everyday Christians" into bestselling authors, big stage speakers, six-figure coaches, and global influencers who shape the culture for Christ"

"Tamara Lowe is a motivator who empowers others to succeed.” GEORGE W. BUSH
It would be a good joke of course, to become an evangelical hotshot and wring some money out of them, and then to lift the veil after a few years
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