“One gets the distinct impression that something is missing.” (Laura Knight-Jadczyk)

[Giuseppe]

Has someone on this forum examined with the right attention the Laura Knight-Jadczyk's assertion that, in Josephus's works,

the record skips again with that absolutely astonishing leap from 19 to 36/37 AD! So how the heck did that happen?

(From Paul to Mark: PaleoChristianity, p. 197)

Her thesis is that in the place of the current lacuna, there was the explicit mention of the death of Judas the Galilean by Pilate.

The assumption is obviously that Pilate could have entered in the Gospel tradition only as effect of the choice of using Judas the Galilean as model for the Gospel Jesus, at least regarding his crucifixion. Someway, Judas the Galilean was enough famous as 'founder' of something, that only he could be used to fix the dating of another founder.

The same discourse can't be made with the unnamed Samaritan prophet killed by Pilate, since he didn't found nothing, he wasn't a true Judean, and his only merit was to pose as 'the Messiah son of Joseph'.

Attention: My point is not to ignore the importance of the unnamed Samaritan Impostor, since his identity as Dositheus proves that there was indeed a real Christian interest about him (even if only among anti-demiurgist circles).

The figure of Judas the Galilean has derived the attention of many only because he was interested to the title of 'king of Jews' (differently from the Samaritan Impostor), and he was close to the time of Pilate without the presence of an explicit connection (unless one appeals to the argument of a lacuna in the text).

Sincerely, I am divided between Judas the Galilean and the Samaritan Impostor, as best candidate able to explain the otherwise enigmatic dating under Pilate.

I think that the difference is principally about the Motivation:

• 1) if the author of the Earliest Gospel had chosen the Samaritan Impostor, then some rivalry there was against the Dositheans. We have an example in the same dating of Simon Magus under Pilate: "it is not your Jesus, but our Simon Magus, masked as Jesus, who was crucified by Pilate". In other terms, the Magus receives a dating under Pilate only as effect of the failed Simonian co-optation of the Gospel tradition.

• 2) if the author of the Earliest Gospel had chosen Judas the Galilean, then the Motivation was simply the notoriety of Judas, courtesy of Josephus, as "Founder" of the Fourth Philosophy.

[maryhelena]

Giuseppe, try considering history for a change of perspective.

Why the time of Pilate for the Gospel Crucifixion story?

Because the time of Pilate contained a date - 33ce. That date is the 70th year anniversary/rememberance/memorial year for the Roman execution of the last King and High Priest of the Jews - Antigonus in 37 bc. In Antioch by Marc Antony.

Josephus gives no date for a death of Judas the Galilean.... let alone providing historical evidence to support his story about Judas and his two crucified sons.

This Josephan story is very likely a rememberance or a flashback to the Hasmonean history of Aristobulus II and his two sons executed by Rome.

Aristobulas II poisoned 49 bc. On way to Judaea after Julius Caesar release him from prison.
Alexander beheaded in Antioch in 48/47 bc.
Antigonus beheaded, bound to a cross, in Antioch in 37 bc.

(.... Interestingly.... 49 bc to 21 ce is another 70 year Hasmonean history Anniversary...
The 7th year of Tiberius Crucifixion story in the Acts of Pilate. So there you go.... Josephus with his ambigious dating for Pilate is accommodating various rememberance dates in Hasmonean history.)

[Giuseppe]

Are you a troll, maryhelena, when you post continually your comments about Antigonus without explaining minimally WHY PILATE ?

What is the relation between Antigonus and Pilate ? ZERO.

PLease, stop to dirty my threads with your obsession with Antigonus.
Even if you are correct, that the originator of the Gospel tradition was Antigonus, still you are totally unable to explain WHY PILATE, unless you talk about a generic stupid confusion.

Therefore, again: please DO NOT DISTURB me with Antigonus.

[maryhelena]

Are you a troll, maryhelena, when you post continually your comments about Antigonus without explaining minimally WHY PILATE ?

What is the relation among Antigonus and Pilate ? ZERO.

PLease, stop to dirty my threads with your obsession with Antigonus.
Even if you are correct, that the originator of the Gospel tradition was Antigonus, still you are totally unable to explain WHY PILATE, unless you talk about a generic stupid confusion.

Therefore, again: please DO NOT DISTURB me with Antigonus.

Goodness, Giuseppe calm down before you give yourself a heart attack.

I gave you my reason of 'why Pilate'. Because the time of Pilate contains dates that reflect important 70 year anniversaries of Hasmonean history.

History is primary. Stories in Josephus are just that.... and they remain stories until historical evidence suggests otherwise.

[Giuseppe]

I gave you my reason of 'why Pilate'. Because the time of Pilate contains dates that reflect important 70 year anniversaries of Hasmonean history.

Well. I reject any explanation that appeals to Anniversaries or Sacred Chronology of the kind "plus 70", "minus 40", et similia.
Are you satisfied now?

[maryhelena]

I gave you my reason of 'why Pilate'. Because the time of Pilate contains dates that reflect important 70 year anniversaries of Hasmonean history.

Well. I reject any explanation that appeals to Anniversaries or Sacred Chronology of the kind "plus 70", "minus 40", et similia.
Are you satisfied now?

OK.... I'll also be clear. I reject your use of the Josephan figure of Judas the Galilean as being relevant to, associated with, the time of Pilate.

[lclapshaw]

At least Mary has a consistent account and doesn't go off on wild tangents daily Giuseppe.

Give that some thought.

[Giuseppe]

At least Mary has a consistent account and doesn't go off on wild tangents daily Giuseppe.

Give that some thought.

how can an account be consistent without a valid explanation about why Pilate?

At least I am going to consider (by what you call 'wild tangents') what could be in PILATE's time that derived the attention of the author who fixed deliberately Jesus under Pilate.

[Giuseppe]

I should add another feature of the Pilate's time, one totally different from Laura Knight-Jadczyk's view and from any discussion about Dositheus:
the fact that under Pilate there was really something of similar to a Pax Romana.

The right place at the right time: A historical rationale for the afterlife of the uprising of Jesus of Nazareth


This study aims to determine why the uprising of Jesus of Nazareth fostered an afterlife in spite of the fact that Jesus was executed. There were numerous uprisings at the turn of the Common Era in Palestine, and every uprising leader suffered the same fate, death, and every uprising subsequently desisted, except for Jesus'. The characteristics of the uprisings of Judas son of Hezekias, Simon of Peraea, Athronges the Shepherd, Judas the Galilean, John the Baptist, Jesus of Nazareth and Theudas (4 B.C.E. - 44 C.E.) are analysed in order to discover reasons to explain this anomaly. The perceptions and actions of the three ruling parties of Palestine at the time (Romans, Herods, Jewish leadership) are investigated to determine what affect they had on each uprising. It is concluded that the reason Jesus' uprising had an afterlife was timing. It is proposed that Jesus' uprising occurred at a time of relative peace and stability in Palestine. It was also a time of political concern for Pilate in relation to his standing with Tiberius. This state of affairs contributed to Pilate allowing Jesus' followers to live and fostered an environment conducive to advancing the movement.

[maryhelena]

Has someone on this forum examined with the right attention the Laura Knight-Jadczyk's assertion that, in Josephus's works,

the record skips again with that absolutely astonishing leap from 19 to 36/37 AD! So how the heck did that happen?

(From Paul to Mark: PaleoChristianity, p. 197)

Her thesis is that in the place of the current lacuna, there was the explicit mention of the death of Judas the Galilean by Pilate.

Methinks a Josephan scholar would have some choice words to say to Laura Knight-Jadczyk about putting words into the mouth of Josephus. Interpreting his words is one thing. - putting words in his mouth.....