Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 9:15 amThen the skeptical investigator has a practical incapacity to discuss the topic in question intelligently.Leucius Charinus wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 2:37 amA skeptical investigator has the right to demand physical proof of manuscript transmission from antiquity. Where such proof is unavailable there is room for doubt.Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Sun May 14, 2023 8:37 pm (c) reference to an idea that everything should be regarded as potentially fabricated up to the moment of the extant manuscript
neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 10:55 pm What is being raised here is actually a fraught and complex area of discussion in philosophy and in particular the philosophy of history. How can we know anything -- how can we know if X really is from Y, etc.? One book I came across that hits directly on this question and that helped me think through several issues is
What is being addressed is the question of provenance -- and that's in some ways a separate study from the contents of the documents themselves. It calls for a different set of texts from those most of us usually refer to in any study of history.
- Coady, C. A. J. Testimony: A Philosophical Study. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1995.
Thanks very much for your contribution Neil.
What is provenance when applied to manuscripts?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provenance
The following is also quite useful.
I should firstly break down what the term provenance means as it is often not fully understood, even among those who work in the field. With the help of Rosemary Joyce’s (2012) book chapter, From Place to Place: Provenience, Provenance, and Archaeology, I define provenance as the ownership and whereabouts history of an object from the moment of its creation. A similar, yet different term, is provenience. Provenience is the specific location of where an object was found or excavated. Provenience (or findspot) is one element of an object’s provenance but does not capture the full story. It is the full provenance history that allows for an object possess a greater sense of historical and social context. Among other things, provenance provides us with information about where an object would have been specifically used in ancient times, how the object moved from its excavation area to other parts of the world, how its value changed throughout history (monetarily, aesthetically etc.) and whether it has been physically altered, restored or even if it is potentially a fake.
The Important of Provenance
Provenance is an ever-present and challenging aspect of museum collecting. Reckless collecting practices from museums, dealers, and individuals throughout history has meant the objects in museums today are often lacking in provenance documentation. You may think, why do we even need this documentation and what purpose does it serve? Surely possessing the object itself is enough to construct its meaning and value? Not quite . . . provenance has proven to be a crucial element of an object’s existence. The antiquities market is immense, powerful, and entangled with illegal and unethical practices. Conflict in the Middle East has resulted in an overwhelmingly large portion of Mesopotamian artefacts being caught up in illegal activity, such as clandestine excavations, looting, and theft. Furthermore, the desire for these types of objects from market nations such as the U.S and U.K has meant that there are a large number of fakes and forgeries intertwined with these authentic objects. This is why provenance is so crucial. If an object has valid provenance documentation which shows that it has not been involved with any illegal or unethical activity, the museum can feel safe and certain in their decision to acquire the object. If a museum accepts an object without this provenance documentation, it is difficult to know whether it has been caught up with this kind of activity and the museum could be inadvertently supporting illegal and unethical practices by acquiring and displaying it.
What is Provenance and why is it so important?
Feb 1, 2023 | Museum General
Written By Gabrielle Powell
https://abbeymuseum.com.au/what-is-prov ... important/
A skeptical investigator should always remain sensitive to issues related to the provenance of manuscripts even if (or perhaps, especially if) they have been sourced from the "church archives". We cannot simply assume for example that the late extant Latin manuscripts attributed to the Greek writer Irenaeus have an impeccable provenance - meaning an impeccable transmission history from antiquity to the 14th century. Numerous instances exist whereby the church has attempted to pass off forged manuscripts as legitimate.
In the case of Irenaeus the Turin manuscript is an example. In 1713 Pfaff published the Turin manuscript of Irenaeus in Greek. Harnack later declared it to be a forgery. Do we have any Greek manuscripts for Irenaeus? In 1526 Erasmus' Latin edition for the writings of Irenaeus uses sources not found in three extant manuscripts of that time. Moreover Erasmus thinks that Irenaeus was a Latin author (Not a Greek author). All this relates to the provenance of the Latin manuscripts attributed to the Greek writer Irenaeus.
These questions relating to provenance of manuscripts from the "church fathers" should not be dismissed. Discussion of this topic in question --- the provenance of these manuscripts --- should proceed intelligently. There are many unanswered questions to this. As I have pointed out above, the issue of the earliest extant manuscripts for the "Fathers" and the issue of their provenance (manuscript transmission from antiquity) is not a trivial subject and yet is rarely discussed.