After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Secret Alias
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After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Secret Alias »

Just curious to find out how many people at the forum believe that Christianity was wholly invented by Constantine in the fourth century and that Christianity didn't exist before Constantine?
Stuart
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Stuart »

Isn't that more or less mlinssen's take on this board (if you consider Eusubius as part of that regime)?
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GakuseiDon
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by GakuseiDon »

I don't think his theory has validaty, but he does bring up many important points about the dating of provenance of texts that aren't considered here. We accept the convention that Paul was wrote in the First Century (or Second Century for others). Justin Martyr wrote in the Second Century, etc, but the earliest physical texts are often written around 1000 CE, with a few dating back to the Fourth Century. The dating is more precarious than most of us realise. It's good to be reminded of that occasionally.
Secret Alias
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Secret Alias »

You don't have to invoke Constantine to do this "higher criticism."
Secret Alias
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Secret Alias »

It's good to be reminded of that occasionally.
If only he was like Santa Claus bringing his gifts once a year.
Secret Alias
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Secret Alias »

So far no one believes in this Constantine conspiracy theory. 20 + years in. No takers for his slop.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by GakuseiDon »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 1:52 pm
It's good to be reminded of that occasionally.
If only he was like Santa Claus bringing his gifts once a year.
:cheers: Very true! And there was a point a few years ago where he was derailing threads left, right and centre. But he hasn't done that for a while, so all good. And he answers in good faith any criticisms raised to him. There are some newer ones here who are much more annoying at the moment than LC ever was. (One of them is probably me, with all my Carrier OHJ threads!)
ABuddhist
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by ABuddhist »

GakuseiDon wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 1:40 pm I don't think his theory has validaty, but he does bring up many important points about the dating of provenance of texts that aren't considered here. We accept the convention that Paul was wrote in the First Century (or Second Century for others). Justin Martyr wrote in the Second Century, etc, but the earliest physical texts are often written around 1000 CE, with a few dating back to the Fourth Century. The dating is more precarious than most of us realise. It's good to be reminded of that occasionally.
I agree with this, and I would add that although I disagree with him and he with me about when the texts should be dated, he is polite, willing to cite relevant data, and willing to learn about topicvs which he is not familiar with. I wish that more people here were like that, regardless of what model of Christian orgins they adhere to.
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MrMacSon
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by MrMacSon »

If Christianity was 'invented whole-cloth' in the 4th century, it's very unlikely it would have been invented by a Roman emperor and even less likely it would have been invented by one in Constantine's situation ie. given his family background and upbringing in the cult of Sol Invicitus which persisted among Roman elite, such as Constantine's father, after Aurelian's elevation of it in the early 270s CE.

It's very unlikely Constantine would have had the inclination or the time (given all that was going on in the Roman empire in his time, including the shift to establishing its headquarters in Byzantium/Constantinople. It is possible Christianity was elevated in the 2nd half of his rule but how or to what actual extent will be hard to determine: almost all the assertions and legends about Constantine's interactions with Christianity, apart from those related to the Council of Nicea, apply to early in his rule, related to his military activity).

Eusebius might have had the time and inclination but his writings—well, the writings attributed to him—fairly strongly suggest that, while he was clearly inventing some aspects of 'early Christian history', ie. before 'his time', he was still relying on genuine earlier textual traditions.

I think it's likely that what's viewed as early Christian history has almost all been embellished; and probably at least twice, in stages ie. works of the likes of Tertullian and Origin were likely embellished in the 1-200 years after they were first written; then probably in the 4th-5th centuries; and probably again at some later stage. If Eusebius' works were embellished, they are likely to first have been within 100 yrs.

It seems fairly clear, to me that the basic traditions associated with and attributed to Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hyppolytus, Clement of Alexandria, the author of the Refutation of All Heresies, and a few others in the mid-late 2nd century to 3rd century, are realistic and genuine. Whether they all are might be debateable. They give witness to Marcion and Marcionite Christianity, Simonism/Simonianism, Sethianism, Valentinianism and other so-called 'gnostic' sects and traditions. As do people like Plotinus (c. 204/5 – 270 AD/CE):


In Vita Plotini (VP) 16 Porphyry attests that Plotinus often refuted “Gnostics” in his lectures and wrote a treatise against them; he had his disciple Amelius write forty books against Zostrianus and his other disciple. Porphyry compose many refutations of the book of Zoroaster. Jean-Marc Narbonne’s thesis is that Plotinus’ anti-Gnostic campaign was not confined to treatises 30-33 (the so-called anti-Gnostic Großschrift), but was the main challenge of his career, and a virtually life-long one at that. Like Origen’s, I add; for Origen engaged in anti- “Gnostic” polemics for the whole of his life and even elaborated some of his main doctrines in an anti-“Gnostic” spirit. In Treatise 9 Plotinus was likely thinking of former disciples of his who were won over by some “Gnostics” when he lamented that some people were taught that they were children of God while the others, whom they used to admire ( sc. Plotinus and the Neoplatonists), were not. Plotinus in Treatise 33 protested that every soul is a child of God.1 It is understandable that, when Origen won a former Valentinian, Ambrose, over to his own anti- Gnostic ideas, this was perceived by him as an enormous success. All the more so in that many of the most intellectually demanding among the Christians (and perhaps not only among the Christians?) were easily attracted by “Gnosticism.” And Christians were certainly among Plotinus’ disciples, just as “pagans” were among Origen’s.

https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2011/2011.10.25


That review of Jean-Marc Narbonne's Plotinus in Dialogue with the Gnostics. Studies in Platonism, Neoplatonism, and the Platonic Tradition 11, Leiden/Boston: Brill, 2011 (by Ilaria L.E. Ramelli, Catholic University of the Sacred Heart, Milan) finishes by referring to Clement and Origen as 'anti-Gnostic Christian Platonists'.

eta: for posterity
https://brill.com/display/book/97890044 ... 000015.xml via https://brill.com/display/title/55962?language=en
Last edited by MrMacSon on Wed Apr 12, 2023 10:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
davidmartin
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by davidmartin »

isn't it more likely Constantine's rise to power was helped by leveraging Christianity? he woke up one day and thought why not, it might just work, so he starts putting out feelers and it starts fucking working, so he goes all in. he must of been amazed how willing Christians were to accomodate the emporer's dick
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