After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

[robert j]

Deleted by me —- off topic.

[Secret Alias]

Actually you know when I die I will think the time I spent here interacting with smart people will be among the BEST time I spent on the earth. Even the stupid people at the forum wasn't a complete waste of time. Let me explain what I mean by a sports analogy.

I was watching the Man City Bayern game yesterday. Alphonso Davies had been hyped as one of the best fullbacks in the world. Canadian by nationality he was recognized for his speed and was moved up from U16 straight to the first team MLS and then Bayern. Had some big games against Barcelona and was ranked at the top of his position.

But yesterday he looked so Canadian. I don't think he had ever played on a team that was totally dominated. I think he ended up with a 5.5 sofascore (out of 10). Dreadful. But I think part of it was he had never been completely and utterly outclassed.

Coming here there are some stupid people. But learning how stupid people think and reason teaches you more than just hanging around experts. It prepares you to be surprised and keeps you sharp.

"Hive mentality" = herd mentality is dangerous.

[Secret Alias]

I don't think the value of coming here is about being "right" but being honest.

And to that end I don't blame Pete for being "wrong" about Christianity being invented by Constantine. I accuse him of dishonesty. He can't possibly believe that in the light of the evidence.

And it's the same as other people I've clashed with. It's okay to say "maybe." But it's dishonest not to recognize that you always end up combatting on behalf of outlandish theories and complete revaluations of history in every branch of the early religious history of the West. Surely someone somewhere is an honest broker. Surely there isn't a conspiracy in the under paid ranks of humanities scholars to suppress your truth. Speaks instead, I think to your agenda to overturn rather than to discover.

[davidmartin]

what's your theory SA?
where did Jesus come from?

[Secret Alias]

I don't know.

Let's suppose that there was a Jesus.
His religious identity became intertwined with the second god "Man" of Philo and early priestly Judaism.
The idea at the core of the gospel seems to be that the god who gave Israel the 10 commandments returned for some purpose which required him to disguise himself in humility leading to his crucifixion and ultimately his redemption of the souls who had been imprisoned in the underworld.
He revealed his "true glory" i.e. who he was (unlike the gospel ministry where he was obscured by "meekness") when he descended into Hades.
Jesus was, according to this understanding, "the Man of War."
His Father was the "good god" the merciful power.
Jesus was Yahweh? But the early Church Fathers didn't like the depiction of Yahweh as a secondary power and the idea of a "good god" above him.

Something like that.

Things I don't understand.

Why are the Jews blamed for not recognizing him when he was disguised. Doesn't make sense.
If he was the god of the Jews it explains why the prophesies didn't pertain to him (as the Jews didn't think the prophets predicted the coming down of the Lord) in their messianic prophesies.
The idea of a Man of War disguising himself as a meek being fits a lot of Pauline statements.
Not sure what the crucifixion means. Something to do with the destruction of Jerusalem? Tenth legion?
The temple had to be destroyed because ... the ten commandments don't advocate sacrifice?
Was there a connection between the ten utterances and the tenth legion? that the temple (which was not prescribed in the ten utterances) was abolished by the ten?

But somehow I think Christianity wanted to get back to the 10 utterances/words as the only "God-given" commandments. Only authoritative (remember he is immediately recognized as "having authority") rules.

It's like an ultra-Samaritan (Dosithean?) position. Only the ten commandments. I think "do not covet" was kept in its short form (like Philo). Asceticism springs from "the last" commandment as being against lust (later expanded to a specific lust for property).

[lclapshaw]

Coming here there are some stupid people. But learning how stupid people think and reason teaches you more than just hanging around experts. It prepares you to be surprised and keeps you sharp.

Remember the poster who would post testimonials of random people on the internet that praised him and his conclusions on this subject? It was common, crass, and totally fascinating to me.

The need to be right, to have figured it all out, is a common trait of people drawn to this subject. To convey the absolute truth in a authoritative manner is a next logical step. This is not limited to "stupid" people, quite a few very intelligent people that have posted here are just as guilty of it.

The subject matter of early XCanity isn't what keeps me coming back, it's rather mundane really. No, it's the facination of reading intelligent, articulate, well read posters that cannot, for whatever reason, move on from a position no matter what. The need to be right! No matter what!

"Damn the facts! I'm right, I have it all worked out! Listen to ME!"

[Secret Alias]

I think it goes beyond "Biblical Criticism." It used to be that we all "went out in the world" and engaged with people. I spend all my time with my family now. Safe zone. It's interesting to have a common set of 'facts' - let's say 4 - 5000 bits of evidence, documents, discoveries and then spend time trying to put it together AND THEN encounter people who turn the evidence upside down and say something completely unexpected. It's not about the evidence. It's about how humans think, breathe, rationalize things that makes me attracted to this forum.

[lclapshaw]

I think it goes beyond "Biblical Criticism." It used to be that we all "went out in the world" and engaged with people. I spend all my time with my family now. Safe zone. It's interesting to have a common set of 'facts' - let's say 4 - 5000 bits of evidence, documents, discoveries and then spend time trying to put it together AND THEN encounter people who turn the evidence upside down and say something completely unexpected. It's not about the evidence. It's about how humans think, breathe, rationalize things that makes me attracted to this forum.

Agreed. Human rationalization is my draw here. Even when it's like looking at a really bad car accident.

[dbz]

Having said that: none of Christianity predates 200 CE...

• And most of the works of Middle Platonists are now lost!

Middle Platonism conventionally refers to a group of philosophers from the 1st century BCE to the 3rd century CE . . . Unfortunately, most of the works of Middle Platonists are now lost, but the material that remains enable us to reconstruct the basic features of their thought.

--Bonazzi, Mauro (30 March 2015). "Middle Platonism". Classics. doi:10.1093/obo/9780195389661-0190.

So the way Christianity originated could of been:

• The ahistorical Jesus originated from normative human sociological/religious impulses which includes religious syncretism
  OR
• Jesus is a deliberate synthetic fiction and/or a conspiracy

[davidmartin]

the source materials are insanely opaque and don't fit together properly, you'd think after the mountain of surviving texts it would be pretty easy to come up with at least one theory that works, but no. we are obviously missing some major pieces of the puzzle