After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
dbz
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by dbz »

Enn. 5.2[11].1.8–13: “Its halt and turning towards the One constitutes Being, its gaze upon the One, [thus becomes] Intellect."
billd89 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 2:40 pm My translation:
(De Fuga Et Inventione, 20:108-109) 110. ...the body is the clothing of the Soul and Virtues clothe the Intellect of the wise.

A lack of virtue is the result of "Negative Demiurgy" in the creation of humanity.
  1. For some Jews...
  2. And some wrote...
  3. Some factions also dedicated themselves to the study of “hidden wisdom” and the roles of angels...


    --Godfrey, Neil (21 June 2009). "The diverse Jewish religious environment of Paul outmatches the imagination of Borg and Crossan". Vridar.
Perhaps per Philo:
  • the redeemer second-god is Wisdom/Mother Sophia
  • the third-god is Logos—the principle of creation/being
IMO it would of been trivial for first century worship of the good redeemer Chrest (originating per the revised Platonism_2.0 called Middle-Platonism) to become in latter centuries Christianity.
Secret Alias
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Secret Alias »

So we're still at zero. After 25+ years of effort not a single person is converted to this theory.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Richard Carrier wrote:No, Christianity Was Not Invented in the 4th Century

And yes. We know that for a fact. Like QAnon, which is a new secular religion spreading, quite bizarrely, across the globe, I have noticed another strange conspiracy theory gaining popularity and spreading worldwide: the belief that Christianity was invented in the 4th century by agents of Constantine’s government. It’s not new. You can find instantiations of this claim going back decades, escalating to varying degrees of absurdity (years ago one guy tried interrupting a talk I was giving by insisting the entirety of ancient literature was invented in the Renaissance!), but this lesser version is newly raging in popularity. I know because I’ve been arguing lately with a lot of people who keep coming to me insisting on it, and they are coming to me from countries all over the globe, and each has their own “version” of this Constantine myth, and their own talking points, so it does not appear to be coming from any central source. It’s just a metastasizing cancer like every other conspiracy theory these days. It suffers from all the same flaws one should know better than to fall victim to, as covered in my Vital Primer on Media Literacy, and my articles From Lead Codices to Mummy Gospels and Killing Crankery with Bayesian Reasoning.

It fits the mold of all conspiracy theory thinking: a comforting belief that one has caught “the government” lying to them and can now “expose” the lie and thus “take down” the global threat of Christianity by “spreading the gospel.” In this new evangelism, “Christianity” is usually (though not always) framed as The Vatican, in echoes of Protocols of Zion style conspiracy theories against the Jews. And the notion “triggers” all the usual false levers of intuition: it “feels” right, various puzzle pieces can be “fitted together,” and Dunning-Kruger amateurism slips right into the bear trap of thinking “you” know how things like archaeology and history and science work better than literally thousands upon thousands of actual experts. Which is why so many make such an effort to “convert” real experts like me: they need some of us to agree with them, to legitimize their delusion.

But it’s still a delusion. Here’s why.

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/18047

Carrier and the Mainstream Dating Game:
Defending a 4th century terminus ad quem for Christian Origins


ABSTRACT:

The historian Richard Carrier as a spokesperson for the 1st century mainstream theory of Christian origins has attempted to falsify a 4th century origin hypothesis by adducing evidence which is supposedly both 1) unambiguously Christian and 2) can be securely and confidently dated earlier (i.e., to the 1st, 2nd or 3rd century). The evidence adduced does not convincingly preclude a 4th century terminus ad quem for Christian Origins.

https://www.academia.edu/60176264/Carri ... an_Origins
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mlinssen
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by mlinssen »

It is absolute nonsense what Pete claims, and it has been refuted more than a few times over.
And Pete is only willing to give in where it doesn't hurt his theory, and he is just as biased as most everyone else with an unproven pet theory
  • Does Pete try to falsify his theory by following up on Thomasine priority? No, he rejects the challenges with a feeble "well I dunno, I'm no expert, could be any other way really" so no decisions are made, and that is the exact same strategy that is used by the apologetics with their oral memory and layered traditions: keep it all in the dark, let no conclusions be reached - because the only goal is that your theory does not get shot by others
  • Likewise he semi embraces Philip, as it severely hurts his theory that Chrestianity existed prior to Christianity
  • Likewise he is not interested at all in the fact that the nomina sacra in the NHL don't comprise even a third of what the Greek mss have, as that is an indication of their priority over that of the Greek texts, or at the very least indicates a decisively different stream of thought
  • Pete could have tried to research and debunk / demonstrate his own theory but he doesn't even have the Brill series on the Nag Hammadi Library: the entire goal of his theory is just that, to have a theory
Is Pete an objective researcher, willing to negotiate pros and cons to his theory? Most certainly not - but then again I only know of four people out here who are: Bild, David, Charles and Irish. I count myself among those, by the way

And we can turn this into something really challenging when we extend this courtesy: how many out here believe Huller's theory of ISH? Zero, I would think although he'll likely get a few apologists on board

And the sad truth is that most out here are only interested in their own theory, even if it's only an incredibly shallow one that lacks motive as well as opportunity as well as evidence: we're here mostly to scream at one another, instead of listening to - and the best showcase for that is Huller himself
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mlinssen
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by mlinssen »

Having said that: none of Christianity predates 200 CE, and it most certainly was managed by Romans from start to finish, and all of them knew very well that what they were doing was to create fiction, to rewrite history, to change the course of events

But invent? No, they took all of Chrestianity, slapped Judaism onto it and turned it into Christianity: they rewrote parts of the script, but they didn't create the book.
And it must be evident to all that all of the Judaism in the NT is fake and false, and that the epistles are the primary product of Christianity although there perhaps may be a splinter of legacy to them here and there, whereas Acts naturally is an unbridled work of fiction from the very first to the very least letter, and a purely Churchian product
lclapshaw
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by lclapshaw »

A more rigorous dating method than paleography would be helpful IMO.
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MrMacSon
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by MrMacSon »

lclapshaw wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 10:41 pm A more rigorous dating method than paleography would be helpful IMO.
  • Tinder!
lclapshaw
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by lclapshaw »

MrMacSon wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:10 pm
lclapshaw wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 10:41 pm A more rigorous dating method than paleography would be helpful IMO.
  • Tinder!
pearº ring surely :D
lclapshaw
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by lclapshaw »

May I call you Shirley? ;)
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