After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:46 pm
Leucius Charinus wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:42 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:57 pm I wonder if we can explore the third century more then.
Some players:

* Philostratus and the Second Sophistic
* Mani and the Manicheans
* Philip the Arab - was he ever a Christian?
* Plotinus and the imperial sponsorship of Platonism
* Porphyry - editor in chief of Plotinus' Enneads
* Eusebius and the theological library of Origen and Pamphilus
* Diocletian Reforms - legal, geographical, political.

Some worries over these players.
They look like duplicates.

* Ammonius the Christian - involved in the Ammonian / Eusebian tables
* Ammonius Saccas - the "father" of Neoplatonism
* Origen the Christian - pupil of Ammonius the Christian
* Origen the Platonist - pupil of Ammonius Saccas
* Anatolius the Christian Bishop
* Anatolius of Alexandria the Platonist

http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/Nicae ... Christ.htm
Certainly. I'm also wondering if we're making any headway so far.

For example, was there at least one Χρειστιανος sometime in the 3rd century?
I have these variant spellings on inscriptions and papyri listed here:
http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/chres ... stians.htm

Some are 3rd century, for example P.Oxy XLII 3035 χρησιανοι ("Chresian")

There is also listed an epitaph inscription (CIL VI:24944) dating to possibly before 37 AD/CE that mentions a man named "Iucundus Chrestianus."
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Peter Kirby
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Peter Kirby »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:49 am
Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:46 pm
Leucius Charinus wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:42 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:57 pm I wonder if we can explore the third century more then.
Some players:

* Philostratus and the Second Sophistic
* Mani and the Manicheans
* Philip the Arab - was he ever a Christian?
* Plotinus and the imperial sponsorship of Platonism
* Porphyry - editor in chief of Plotinus' Enneads
* Eusebius and the theological library of Origen and Pamphilus
* Diocletian Reforms - legal, geographical, political.

Some worries over these players.
They look like duplicates.

* Ammonius the Christian - involved in the Ammonian / Eusebian tables
* Ammonius Saccas - the "father" of Neoplatonism
* Origen the Christian - pupil of Ammonius the Christian
* Origen the Platonist - pupil of Ammonius Saccas
* Anatolius the Christian Bishop
* Anatolius of Alexandria the Platonist

http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/Nicae ... Christ.htm
Certainly. I'm also wondering if we're making any headway so far.

For example, was there at least one Χρειστιανος sometime in the 3rd century?
I have these variant spellings on inscriptions and papyri listed here:
http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/chres ... stians.htm

Some are 3rd century, for example P.Oxy XLII 3035 χρησιανοι ("Chresian")

There is also listed an epitaph inscription (CIL VI:24944) dating to possibly before 37 AD/CE that mentions a man named "Iucundus Chrestianus."
That's not exactly what you've listed ("variant spellings on inscriptions and papyri"). You don't just show all the variant spellings and their dates. Your webpage list has preferentially and tendentiously shown the spellings similar to Χρηστιανος and omitted the spelling Χρειστιανος even when there are 3rd century examples of the latter spelling. As does your reply above! And you have expressed sympathy for finding significance in this spelling, as well as interest in a diachronic development supposedly starting with Χρηστιανος. That's why I asked this specific question:

Do you now recognize that was there at least one Χρειστιανος sometime in the 3rd century?
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Secret Alias »

Has Pete never read a Greek manuscript. These sorts of vowel substitutions are everywhere. Go to any ancient dictionary. I have in front of me Jastrow. The amount of variation for the spelling of words is incredible.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by neilgodfrey »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:57 pm C14, tree-ring and ice-layer analysis is science. Textual and redaction criticism of Chriistian literature is not science. It is an art form, highly subjective and bound up within a historical paradigm associated with theological institutes and colleges which have been central to the education system of western civilisation since at least the 4th century.

That is true, but the data must be interpreted -- and that's where subjectivity at some level does enter. Comparing textual content is not itself an art form (not when we are identifying, say, particular motifs or images) but the same kind of interpretation of raw data. The meaning one draws from those interpretations is where "art" may enter.
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by neilgodfrey »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:57 pm A literary school hell bent on assembling theological literature based on an historical fiction set in the 1st century of the common era simply mimics the philosophical literature of 1st century Stoics. No big deal. I don't see any problem with replicating literary memes and tropes in centuries old extant texts.
Given the amount of literature so "mimicked", you don't think it would be very odd if there was not a slip up at and an anachronism slipped in?

It is arguable that Paul's letters are not first century works because of arguable anachronisms from the second century. Are there any from the fourth?
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by MrMacSon »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:57 pm There is arguably no physical primary evidence from before the 3rd century to verify 1st or 2nd century origins.
  • Meh. Based on present 'knowledge' you can't use "no physical primary evidence from before the 3rd century" to write off 1st or 2nd century origins for some of the concepts, especially wrt 2nd century origins

Leucius Charinus wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:57 pm The question is whether and to what extent the top-down imperial establishment of the overt political Christian state in the 4th century has contributed towards the fabrication of its own prior history.
  • Yeah, and it's been acknowledged and discussed that various 'texts' were likely redacted several times over the centuries (you're like a broken record)

Leucius Charinus wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:57 pm A literary school hell bent on assembling theological literature based on an historical fiction set in the 1st century of the common era simply mimics the philosophical literature of 1st century Stoics.
  • Revised:
    A literary school assembled theological literature to give the allusion of history - historical fiction - and set it in the 1st century of the common era; some of it, eg. aspects of Paul, mimics the philosophical literature of 1st century Stoics.


Leucius Charinus wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:57 pm I don't see any problem with replicating literary memes and tropes in centuries old extant texts. That's precisely what Pseudo-Isidore was still doing in the 9th century.
  • That's what some were doing in the 3rd century AD/CE ie. mimicking texts thought today and probably then to be 3-500 yr old
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:14 am
Leucius Charinus wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:49 am I have these variant spellings on inscriptions and papyri listed here:
http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/chres ... stians.htm

Some are 3rd century, for example P.Oxy XLII 3035 χρησιανοι ("Chresian")

There is also listed an epitaph inscription (CIL VI:24944) dating to possibly before 37 AD/CE that mentions a man named "Iucundus Chrestianus."
That's not exactly what you've listed ("variant spellings on inscriptions and papyri"). You don't just show all the variant spellings and their dates. Your webpage list has preferentially and tendentiously shown the spellings similar to Χρηστιανος and omitted the spelling Χρειστιανος even when there are 3rd century examples of the latter spelling.
The earliest Χρειστιανος is listed as that in Codex Vaticanus. The Phrygian Epitaph Inscriptions listed show χρηστιανοι (Chrestian) for two reasons:

1) This is what appeared to be listed in Elsa Gibson's "The Christians for Christians Inscriptions of Phrygia" which has been reviewed here:
http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/article_074.htm

2) This also what appeared to be listed in John Bartram's catalogue here:
https://conjuringjesus.quora.com/Archae ... -catalogue
As does your reply above! And you have expressed sympathy for finding significance in this spelling, as well as interest in a diachronic development supposedly starting with Χρηστιανος. That's why I asked this specific question:

Do you now recognize that was there at least one Χρειστιανος sometime in the 3rd century?
I think that this is yet to be determined. You have cited an inscription above with Χρειστιανος. Can you find a picture of this with the iota? The pictures I have do not seem to have the iota prior to Codex Vaticanus.
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Has Pete never read a Greek manuscript. These sorts of vowel substitutions are everywhere. Go to any ancient dictionary. I have in front of me Jastrow. The amount of variation for the spelling of words is incredible.
Can you read this manuscript? Does it in fact refer to a "Christian" or a "Chresian"? And if it in fact refers to a "Chresian" what does this term actually mean? Is it in fact an "early spelling" for Christian or is it something else? Who knows?

Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 3035 (or P. Oxy. XLII 3035) is a warrant for the arrest of a Christian, issued by the authorities of the Roman Empire. This is one of the earliest uses of the word Christian attested on papyrus.

The order was issued by the head of the Oxyrhynchus ruling council, to the police in a country village, to arrest a man described as a Christian (note χρισιανόν, the papyrus has the early spelling, χρησιανόν). The charge which makes the Christian liable for arrest is not given. [1]

The manuscript is dated precisely in its closing lines to the third year of the co-regency of Valerian and Gallienus his son, in the third day of the Egyptian month Phamenoth (known as Paremhat in the Coptic calendar). The equivalent date in our Gregorian calendar is 28 February 256 AD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_Oxyrhynchus_3035

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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Leucius Charinus »

neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:34 pm
Leucius Charinus wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:57 pm A literary school hell bent on assembling theological literature based on an historical fiction set in the 1st century of the common era simply mimics the philosophical literature of 1st century Stoics. No big deal. I don't see any problem with replicating literary memes and tropes in centuries old extant texts.
Given the amount of literature so "mimicked", you don't think it would be very odd if there was not a slip up at and an anachronism slipped in?

It is arguable that Paul's letters are not first century works because of arguable anachronisms from the second century. Are there any from the fourth?
There's the infamous Seneca-Paul letter exchange which from the 4th century for more than a thousand years was passed off as genuine by the Nicene and Post Fathers. In fact it prefaced the literature of Seneca as circulated by the Christian education system. So the point is that forgery and fraud of "Ecclesiastical history" seem to have been common place in the 4th century. It is not necessary to explore the fraud of the Holy Relic Trade. A rich and influential Nicene church had accreted between 324-360 CE.

Pious Forgery

There is other material which may be useful in the further exposure of (later) forgery:

Examples of Pseudo-Isidore forged letters from Ante Nicene epoch?
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10286
I have been looking for some time for some samples or indeed all of these 60 bogus letters [See heading 1) below - bolded] which were attributed by Pseudo-Isidore to popes/bishops supposedly living and breathing in the Ante Nicene epoch. I'd like to get an idea of the identities - who supposedly wrote them, to whom they were sent, etc - and what issues and agendas that these forgeries dealt with.
It will be very interesting to be able to review these 60 bogus letters. I wonder if any of them mention Marcion?
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Re: After 20 Years Plus of Flogging His Theory How Many Here at the Forum Believe Mountainman?

Post by Peter Kirby »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:32 pm There is other material which may be useful in the further exposure of (later) forgery:

Examples of Pseudo-Isidore forged letters from Ante Nicene epoch?
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10286
I have been looking for some time for some samples or indeed all of these 60 bogus letters [See heading 1) below - bolded] which were attributed by Pseudo-Isidore to popes/bishops supposedly living and breathing in the Ante Nicene epoch. I'd like to get an idea of the identities - who supposedly wrote them, to whom they were sent, etc - and what issues and agendas that these forgeries dealt with.
It will be very interesting to be able to review these 60 bogus letters. I wonder if any of them mention Marcion?
You've been talking about reviewing these for what feels like 10 years now. Are you ever going to do it?
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