Using ChatGPT

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
gryan
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Re: Using ChatGPT

Post by gryan »

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what is stuart trying to say here: Re: Clement and Nakedness Riddle Solved
Unread post by Stuart » Sat Apr 29, 2023 6:11 pm

ABuddhist wrote: ↑Sat Apr 29, 2023 8:25 am


1. When did bishoprics stop being hereditary in early Christianity in your understanding?
LOL, sometime after the Pauline letters were revised in the late 2nd century. All those "salute so-and-so" that runs through chapter 16 of Romans, Chapter 4 of Colossians are a mix of legendary figures that Pula supposedly would have known (per various acts, apocryphal or otherwise) mixed with a supposed ancestor of some local mucky-muck trying to legitimize their claim over something, probably against a rival claim: some examples that stand out for me Romans 16:5, 16:7, 1 Corinthians 16:15 (Stephen might reference a patron saint of a particular group in Acha'ia, as this was also the turf of a group that has Andrew as patron saint ... endorsement of one sect over another in this area?), Colossians 4:15 and 4:17.

BTW, when I talk of inherited bishoprics, it's a mix of families and groups. Very early on, just like every other aspect of ancient or feudal life, the bigger city and bigger following churches exerted as much control over neighboring churches as they could. I'm pretty sure the practice you see to this day of processions from local churches bringing their local shrines to the larger church (Cathedral) for certain festivals, would have also been a get together of local leaders, the host having the most prominence (and he would of course have monetized the event). It is somewhat speculative, as there isn't much said about the process.

ChatGPT
Stuart is responding to a question about the hereditary nature of bishoprics in early Christianity. Stuart suggests that the practice likely ended sometime after the Pauline letters were revised in the late 2nd century. Stuart notes that the salutations in Romans 16 and Colossians 4 are a mix of legendary figures and supposed ancestors of local leaders attempting to legitimize their claims over something, probably against a rival claim. Stuart also suggests that the bigger city and bigger following churches exerted as much control over neighboring churches as they could and that processions from local churches to the larger church for festivals likely involved local leaders, with the host having the most prominence and monetizing the event.
gryan
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Re: Using ChatGPT

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what is the meaning of the word "bishoprics"

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The word "bishoprics" refers to the diocese or territory of a bishop, or the office or rank of a bishop. It can also refer to the group of bishops in a particular area or church hierarchy.
gryan
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Re: Using ChatGPT

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what is dhc trying to say: Re: The Problem With The Theory That the Pentateuch Was Written in Alexandria
Post by DCHindley » Sat Apr 29, 2023 10:29 pm

ABuddhist wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:02 am
Leucius Charinus wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:37 am
Yes I'd read through that well done. Although as you know I am more skeptical of the integrity of the evidence when it only exists as extracts extant in Christian refutations of anti-Christian writers. Origen refuting Celsus thus is similar to Eusebius refuting Hierocles, or Athanasius refuting Arius, or Cyril refuting Emperor Julian. There are probably other examples. What we have is one step removed from the non-Christian source.
But Arius was Christian, albeit his non-Trinitarian views were condemned as heretical and now qualify him as non-Christian to most Christians. But earlier Christians had broader understandings of Christianity. Marcion was considered by Justin to be a Christian, even though he denied that YHWH was the supreme god.
I think in the 1st Apology he stated that Menander, Simon the Samaritan and Marcion, are 'all called Christians' (ch 7 & 58). That doesn't necessarily mean that he thinks they are "real" Christians, just close enough in practices to "straight thinking" Christians that non-believers lump everyone together.

He objects that all who go by that name, including "straight thinking" Christians, are punished for deeds that one or another of those perverted heretics performed (or at least been imagined to have been performed).

I cannot agree that Justin considered Marcion a genuine Christian.

DCH

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In this post, DCHindley is responding to a discussion about the classification of certain figures as Christians in early Christianity. They point out that while Arius was a Christian, his non-Trinitarian views were later condemned as heretical. DCHindley then discusses Marcion, who was considered a Christian by Justin despite denying that YHWH was the supreme god. They note that while Justin referred to Menander, Simon the Samaritan, and Marcion as "all called Christians," this did not necessarily mean that Justin considered them genuine Christians. DCHindley disagrees with the idea that Justin considered Marcion a genuine Christian.
gryan
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Re: Using ChatGPT

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in the context of the early christian writings forum, does this mean anything to you: WHO IS ONLINE
Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Charles Wilson, Chrissy Hansen, Google [Bot], gryan, Majestic-12 [Bot] and 144 guests

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Yes, "Who is online" is a feature on the Early Christian Writings forum that shows the current activity of users on the forum. It lists the users who are currently browsing the forum and any search engine bots that are indexing the site.
gryan
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Re: Using ChatGPT

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what is going on here: Proofs That Jesus Existed
Post by JoeWallack » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:49 am

ARGUMENT FROM ALLOWANCE
(1) Hundreds of proofs that God exists http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm
(2) No evidence that God currently has any assets (although the Madoff investigation is not completely finished).
(3) Sons are the leading cause of Father poverty.
(4) Therefore, Jesus existed.
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed
Post by PhilosopherJay » Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:04 pm

Great website. Joe, thanks.
I think for each proof we can say therefore God does not exist and the validity of the arguments would not change.
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Re: Proofs That Jesus Existed
Post by Blood » Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:42 pm

ARGUMENT FROM EUROPEAN HISTORY
(1) Many prominent thinkers in pre-modern Europe believed in God.
(2) Let’s just forget about the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

:lol:
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This is a humorous discussion on the topic of proving the existence of Jesus. The initial post presents an argument from allowance, which satirically suggests that Jesus must have existed because sons are the leading cause of father poverty. The following comments continue the satirical tone, with one user presenting an argument from European history that similarly concludes that God exists based on the belief of prominent pre-modern European thinkers.
gryan
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Re: Using ChatGPT

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what is going on here: how mythicists are judged
Unread post by Irish1975 » Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:26 pm

Irenaeus Against Heresies 4.33.5—

Iudicabit autem et eos qui putativum inducunt. Quemadmodum enim ipsi vere se putant disputare, quando magister eorum putativus fuit? Aut quemadmodum firmum quid habere possunt ab eo, si putativus et non veritas erat? Quomodo autem ipsi salutem vere participare possunt, si ille, in quem credere se dicunt, semetipsum putativum ostendebat? Putativum est igitur, et non veritas, omne apud eos: et nunc iam quaeretur, ne forte cum et ipsi homines non sint sed muta animalia, hominum umbras apud plurimos proferant.

My translation


“A presbyter and disciple of the apostles once said to me:

The right-thinking spiritual man of 1 Corinthians 2:15 will also judge those who speak of an alleged Christ. How can such persons imagine themselves to be saying something, if they had only an alleged teacher? Or how could they take something from him really solid, if he hadn’t been true, but only alleged? And how can they have a true share in salvation, if He, in whom they say they believe, only allegedly revealed himself? But then everything about them is likewise a conjecture, and not the truth. And one might ask if they are not really human, but dumb beasts, who pass for shadows among the masses.”

Roberts & Donaldson


“A presbyter and disciple of the apostles once said to me:

The right-thinking spiritual man shall also judge those who describe Christ as [having become man] only in [human] opinion. For how can they imagine that they do themselves carry on a real discussion, when their Master was a mere imaginary being? Or how can they receive anything stedfast from Him, if He was a merely imagined being, and not a verity? And how can these men really be partaken of salvation, if He in whom they profess to believe, manifested Himself as a merely imaginary being? Everything, therefore, connected with these men is unreal, and nothing [possessed of the character of] truth; and, in these circumstances, it may be made a question whether (since, perchance, they themselves in like manner are not men, but mere dumb animals) they do not present, in most cases, simply a shadow of humanity.”

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This post quotes a passage from Irenaeus' Against Heresies in which a presbyter and disciple of the apostles argues that those who speak of an alleged Christ are only imagining things, as their Master was not a real person but only imaginary. The post's author provides their own translation of the passage and notes that the right-thinking spiritual man of 1 Corinthians 2:15 will also judge those who describe Christ as only a product of human opinion. The post may be related to a discussion of how mythicists are judged for their belief that Jesus was not a historical figure.
gryan
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Re: Using ChatGPT

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what is going on here: The Private Miracles in Mark's Gospel
Unread post by Paul the Uncertain » Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:28 pm

The latest post at the Uncertaintist blog introduces the paper I presented last month at the Society of Biblical Literature's first-ever Global Virtual Meeting. The abstract is as follows:

Mark's gospel through verse 16:8 portrays six "private" miracles where small groups (like Jesus alone during baptism or the trio at the transfiguration) experience something uncanny whose exceptional aspects stand unverified. Mark consistently includes details supporting naturalistic explanations of these miracles within otherwise matter-of-fact tellings. Plutarch provides a secular model for this expository style when contrasting Brutus's spectral visitations with Cassius's skeptical oration.

Mark adjoins his exclusively personal events with other miracles, some private (the voice after the transfiguration) but others (the calmed winds after walking on water) where educated listeners might suspect possible routine causation, based on philosophical or scientific learning of those times as documented by Pliny and Seneca. Post-Resurrection private appearances in disfavored verses 16:9-14 are compared with their treatments in other canonical gospels. Mark's accommodation of potential audience skepticism about miracles may have enhanced its appeal to not-yet Christians.


The format of the blog post is a lightly edited version of the conference slide talk. The conference encouraged brief (~ 5 minute) introductions to the work rather than fuller presentations so that most of the presentation time could be devoted to discussions and questions. That worked out well for this paper.

The blog post appears at https://wp.me/p1zXpX-rb .

The full conference paper is currently a featured resource available for free download at the blog's Unlinks page https://uncertaintist.wordpress.com/unlinks/ .
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User avatarPeter Kirby
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Re: The Private Miracles in Mark's Gospel
Unread post by Peter Kirby » Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:35 pm

Thanks for sharing a link to the paper here!

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It appears that Paul the Uncertain is sharing information about a paper he presented at the Society of Biblical Literature's Global Virtual Meeting. The paper discusses six "private" miracles in Mark's Gospel where small groups experience something uncanny with unverified exceptional aspects. Mark includes details that support naturalistic explanations of these miracles within the telling. The post includes a link to the blog where the presentation is shared, and the paper is available for download. Peter Kirby thanked Paul for sharing the link to the paper.
gryan
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Re: Using ChatGPT

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can you summarize this paper: https://uncertaintist.files.wordpress.c ... -paper.pdf

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The paper explores the six "private" miracles in Mark's Gospel, where only a small group of people experiences something unusual or miraculous, and the details supporting naturalistic explanations of these miracles are included in the text. The author argues that Mark's accommodation of potential audience skepticism about miracles may have enhanced the appeal of the Gospel to not-yet Christians. The paper also discusses the contrast between private and public miracles, and how Mark's Gospel compares to other canonical Gospels in its treatment of post-Resurrection private appearances. The author draws a comparison to the writing style of Plutarch, who used a similar expository style when contrasting Brutus's spectral visitations with Cassius's skeptical oration.
gryan
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Re: Using ChatGPT

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what are these: six "private" miracles in Mark's Gospel

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According to the paper "The Private Miracles in Mark's Gospel" by Paul the Uncertain, Mark's Gospel portrays six "private" miracles where small groups experience something uncanny whose exceptional aspects stand unverified. These six private miracles are:

Jesus' baptism (Mark 1:9-11)
Jesus heals a blind man (Mark 8:22-26)
Jesus raises Jairus' daughter (Mark 5:35-43)
Jesus heals a deaf man (Mark 7:31-37)
The transfiguration (Mark 9:2-8)
Jesus heals a blind man (Mark 10:46-52)
Giuseppe
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Re: Using ChatGPT

Post by Giuseppe »

gryan wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:31 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 8:08 am I mean Mythicists strictu senso, i.e. people who think that in the pauline epistles the Argument from Silence is enough Strong against the presence of an earthly Jesus in it...

... in addition to consider the epistles as second century product.

Frankly, I doubt there are mythicists of a such kind. Even Arthur Drews, in his last days of life, when he was persuaded by radical critics that Paul was abundantly fabricated, didn't give up to the idea of a pre-70 little kernel of genuine epistles, necessary and sufficient evidence of a pre-christian mythical Jesus.

Remember the wise words of Jarek Stolarz:


The early Paul, dated 40-60 CE, is like air to the mythicists. Paul's late dating kills the theories of Carrier and others that Jesus was a figment of Paul's or other Gnostics' imaginations. I follow in your footsteps, Hellenistic Jerusalem and many different stories about the historical Jesus. Several traditions are created on their basis. Paul believed in the historical Jesus. Paul learned a poor version of the story about Jesus. It is a story about sacrifice, condemnation, crucifixion and resurrection. Nothing more.

(my bold)


I see that Van Eysinga represents an exception, but only at the cost of an excessive fragmentation of the "epistles" (just as Bob Price does).

Bruno Bauer has never used the Argument from Silence on the epistles, against the idea of an earthly Jesus.

What is left is only Harald Specht, of which I expect the book. How can he consider the same Paul an invention, and still conclude that the epistles ignore the earthly Jesus of the Gospel?
Chat Gpt summary of the above post:

This post is discussing the views of "Mythicists," individuals who believe that there was no historical Jesus and that the figure of Jesus in the Bible is purely mythical. Specifically, the post is questioning whether there are any Mythicists who argue that the Pauline epistles, which are letters written by the apostle Paul in the New Testament, are entirely fabricated.

The author of the post notes that even Arthur Drews, a prominent Mythicist, did not believe that the Pauline epistles were entirely fabricated, even though he did believe that Paul's writings were heavily edited and that there was little evidence for a historical Jesus in them. The author also mentions that Jarek Stolarz, another Mythicist, believed that Paul's writings provided evidence for a historical Jesus, albeit a poor and limited one.

The author goes on to mention that while there are some Mythicists who have argued that the Pauline epistles are second century products and thus not reliable evidence for a historical Jesus, there are few who argue that the epistles are entirely fabricated. The author cites Harald Specht as a possible exception, but notes that they have not yet seen his book and do not know how he reconciles his views on Paul with his views on the historical Jesus.

Overall, the post is discussing the nuances and disagreements within the Mythicist community regarding the reliability of the Pauline epistles as evidence for a historical Jesus.
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
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