Is the claim that Jesus's historicity is irrelevant for Christian origins as controversial as mythicism is?

[ABuddhist]

I am wondering.

[Paul the Uncertain]

The premise that Jesus was a real man who actually lived is the lychpin of a slew of theories of Christian origins (e.g. Carrier "Minimal Historicity"). So, it's hard for me to see how the uncertainty about his historicity is irrelevant to such theories. And these are the dominant theories in today's guild, so any serious study of Christian origins will need to do something with these theories.

There is, however, what might be called an "epistemic frontier," a span of time during which a determined investigator could plausibly develop strong evidence bearing upon whether or not Jesus really lived.

I don't have a hard and fast recipe for determining the latest year of that epistemic frontier, but in the absence of durable physical evidence, how 'bout a round number for the year of the crucifixion, 30 CE, plus a classical long saeculum of 110 years (a reasonable interval to allow that everyone who was alive in 30 is dead by the end of the interval) = 140 CE. Or, if you prefer, the end of the "first Pilate-free Century" (he leaves Judea in 36 or 37, add 100 years) = 136 or 137 CE.

I would say that whether or not Jesus was a real man who actually lived is "irrelevant" for explaining events in "still early" Christianity after 140 CE. The stories would have been what they had become, and definite information about the factual foundation for the stories, if any, would have been irrecoverably lost. The belief or disbelief that the stories were true might help explain events, but their actual truth or falsehood no longer could.

Before that last bit of the epistemic frontier? We don't really know what happened during the earliest century or so of Christianity with great specificity. I think it could be argued that we know so little that if somehow we learned the answer to the Question of Jesus, yes or no, but nothing more than that, then our ignorance of earliest Christianity would still be profound.

In that sense of "relevance," then somebody could view the unelaborated yes-or-no answer as irrelevant to Christian origins, IMO.

[Giuseppe]

The question doesn't make sense to me insofar I think that the mythicism is controversial only on a case on three.

In short:

• Pre-70 Genuine epistles make the Carrier's point well proved: where is the controversy?

• post-70 fabricated epistles based on the Earliest Gospel make the Bauer's point well proved: where is the controversy?

• post-70 fabricated epistles not based on the Earliest Gospel make controversial the mythicism.

[Peter Kirby]

Jesus's historicity (or not) has never seemed completely irrelevant. Yes it's possible to investigate without broaching the subject but that's not the same claim as irrelevance.

[lclapshaw]

Insofar as to wether XCanity is wholy made up or mostly made up I would say yes.

The man on the street doesn't care, it's only relevant to historians like us.

[Peter Kirby]

Insofar as to wether XCanity is wholy made up or mostly made up I would say yes.

The man on the street doesn't care, it's only relevant to historians like us.

This seems even less true. While the man on the street may not care much about any of this, if they do care about any of it, it's often "Did Jesus exist?"

[lclapshaw]

Insofar as to wether XCanity is wholy made up or mostly made up I would say yes.

The man on the street doesn't care, it's only relevant to historians like us.

This seems even less true. While the man on the street may not care much about any of this, if they do care about any of it, it's often "Did Jesus exist?"

Just say "yup he did" and they will be fine with that. Most people that I have encountered just want validation not facts.

Which is fine.

[Peter Kirby]

Insofar as to wether XCanity is wholy made up or mostly made up I would say yes.

The man on the street doesn't care, it's only relevant to historians like us.

This seems even less true. While the man on the street may not care much about any of this, if they do care about any of it, it's often "Did Jesus exist?"

Just say "yup he did" and they will be fine with that. Most people that I have encountered just want validation not facts.

Which is fine.

I saw a recent survey where 40% of the UK apparently would rather hear "yup he didn't" because that's what they said they think. There are various kinds of validation, and there is popular interest both pro and con here.

[lclapshaw]

Insofar as to wether XCanity is wholy made up or mostly made up I would say yes.

The man on the street doesn't care, it's only relevant to historians like us.

This seems even less true. While the man on the street may not care much about any of this, if they do care about any of it, it's often "Did Jesus exist?"

Just say "yup he did" and they will be fine with that. Most people that I have encountered just want validation not facts.

Which is fine.

I saw a recent survey where 40% of the UK apparently would rather hear "yup he didn't" because that's what they said they think. There are various kinds of validation, and there is popular interest both pro and con here.

Oh, for sure. Same with Elvis, JFK, and Bigfoot.

[MrMacSon]

I saw a recent survey where 40% of the UK apparently would rather hear "yup he didn't" because that's what they said they think. There are various kinds of validation, and there is popular interest both pro and con here.

I'm not sure that survey reflects what 40% of UK people "would rather hear": it's probable those 40% would like the remaining 60% to hear and also think Jesus may or did not exist.

In a recent Australian survey, (only) 49% of Australians viewed Jesus as a real person who actually lived. 23% of Australians said they view Jesus as a mythical or fictional character. Another 29% said they don't know. Men are more likely to view Jesus as a mythical figure than women.

Only four in ten Australians aged between 18 and 35 years surveyed understood Jesus to be a real person who actually lived. Higher proportions of older Australians viewed Jesus as a real person than younger age groups. Though 19% to 25% across all age groups believed Jesus was a mythical or fictional character.

Powell, R. & Jacka, K. (2021). Is Jesus real to Australians? http://ncls.org.au/news/is-jesus-real-to-australians